posted 07-07-2003 01:53 PM               

Check out: http://www.beatlebay.com/autograph_examples.htm

and look at 25 and 26 to see how good forgers can get when they really set their mind to mimicking a valuable autograph.

posted 07-07-2003 03:04 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott:
The value of Armstrong's autograph has gotten so high that forgeries I fear are far more common that any of us would like to admit.

I think I'll stick to items personalized to someone's name - the more long and unusual the name the better. Sad that it's come to this, but I have to protect my investments.
Scott

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Very astute observations. Some folks have been raising red flags about certain uninscribed Armstrongs for years, but some others would rather deny probable reality for egotistical or financial reasons.

Common sense dictates that when a signature fetches $1,000+, PROFESSIONAL forgers are going to get into the act. These are the type of professional criminals that fake documents, etc... and create forgeries that are nearly impossible (or impossible) to detect through signature analysis alone. Not all forgers are obvious, cheesy ebay forgers with $24.95 opening bids.

Think about it, almost 100% profit, willing victims and almost impossible to prove and get prosecuted.... hmmmmm.... I wonder if this is something organized crime would want to get involved in? ;-)

Unfortunately, some collectors and dealers feel that if it's "close", it's okay. The only fakes they recognize and/or admit to are the most obvious, amateurish attempts.

Like you, I'd rather have a personalized item that I can be 100% sure of than a more expensive unpersonalized item that half the people think may be fake. I would never drop $1,000 on an item if there was a shred of doubt.

Also, bear in mind that -- in the long run -- personalized examples are often worth more than unpersonalized because there is more handwriting and less likely to be a fake. See, Marilyn Monroe, Albert Einstein, Elvis Presley, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, James Dean, Ronald Reagan, Clark Gable, Thomas Edison, JFK, Martin Luther King and on and on for evidence of this.

posted 07-07-2003 03:35 PM               

Many of the "purists" in our hobby demand only unpersonalized autograph material, and are willing to pay 2-3 times more for it, but in their quest for perfection, they leave themselves more vunerable to forgery, in the opinion of many.

I feel that too many forget that authenticity should be the #1 concern of any autograph collector and they should do whatever it takes to obtain only authentic material.

Bob McLeod

posted 07-07-2003 04:45 PM               

Regards to all,

Andrew

[This message has been edited by andrewcarson (edited July 07, 2003).]

posted 07-08-2003 01:14 AM               

It is not of course a signed 8 x 10... but I rest in the knowledge that the signature is one hundred percent that of Neil.

I made a similar statement about the Seiger blocks and was corrected by a scan forwarded to me by JP Esders. The scan showed a signed stamp block in the style of Neil Armstrong but it was zero percent a signature from Armstrong. I am not saying that there is any problem with your stamps. I have three of them myself and I'm pretty confident. However, the old "you can't be certain unless you were there" is still the only absolute 100% that I know. Having good friends there is the next best as far as I'm concerned.

posted 07-08-2003 01:20 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by xxcygni:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andrewcarson:
[B]I recently bought a Armstrong signed Seiger stamp block from Florian Noller.

It is not of course a signed 8 x 10... but I rest in the knowledge that the signature is one hundred percent that of Neil.

I made a similar statement about the Seiger blocks and was corrected by a scan forwarded to me by JP Esders. The scan showed a signed stamp block in the style of Neil Armstrong but it was zero percent a signature from Armstrong. I am not saying that there is any problem with your stamps. I have three of them myself and I'm pretty confident. However, the old "you can't be certain unless you were there" is still the only absolute 100% that I know. Having good friends there is the next best as far as I'm concerned.

Mike Joner

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Mike,

The stamps and souvenir sheets sold with the autographs of astronauts do exist of course without the autograph as well. Nothing can stop a forger to procure himself with the appropriate stamp or souvenir sheet and produce a fake autograph on it.

The difference is of course documentation. This particular issue of signed souvenir sheets were all provided with the appropriate documentation by the seller.

Last, but certainly not least, if someone provides you with documentation that proves the souvenir sheets came from a guy named "Seiger" - you got a fake. Same if someone sells you an autograph that reads "Neal Armstrong or "Niel Armstrong". Or an "Alan Shepherd" autograph. You read that and you better start 2nd guessing the description right away.

The guy's name is Sieger. S-i-e-g-e-r. Spelling of names is important, particularly if we're dealing with things that are nothing but - names written down.

------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies

posted 07-08-2003 05:26 AM               

Thanks,

posted 07-08-2003 08:58 AM               

The sad thing is - this may very well be real. But who's to say?
One of the more unsettling things I've seen is in the "Stein & Day Book of World Autographs", a book from 1978 which is now out of print but available on Half.com at:
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=3232310&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1

It is an excellent resource and fascinating read and I highly recommend it to all autograph collectors. It is the personal collection of a man named Ray Rawlins, who collected in the middle part of the 20th century. This man had a remarkable collection that included William the Conquerer, Joan of Arc, Henry VIII as well as contemporary celebrities such as Henry Kissinger. Some items possibly unique. Obviously assembled long ago when autograph values were miniscule compared to today. Well, my point is, take a look at the Apollo XI crew signed photo in the book. The Neil Armstrong autograph is one that would be dismissed out of hand as a “forgery” by most of us, but may very well be an authentic in-person example. The other 2 crew members as I recall look fine. But why would he have a Neil forgery way back then, when even an Apollo XI crew signed photo paled in comparison with many other items in his collection? Seeing that sold me on inscriptions forever. And do you recall the Neil Armstrong that Kim Poor had in his Astro Auction a year ago that was a litho signed by 8 or so of the astronauts who had attended an air show in 2001? It was passed around among the attendees and signed by them. The Neil is completely authentic but, as Kim said, it was one whose style “had been poo-poo’d as a forgery by many”. Steve Zarelli is right – you unfortunately have to follow the money. When an autograph reaches these heights in value (hundreds of dollars for a contemporary signed index card!) you must be very careful. That’s my advice.
Scott

posted 07-08-2003 12:08 PM               

Yes Scott, unfortunately, we mostly DO have to follow the money. But as you point out by your examples, too many Armstrongs are dismissed today just because they don't have inscriptions. That's why, as you pointed out, and as Gerry M. likes to say so often, it's important to look at the whole picture. (It's one of the reasons I'd say the book you linked to has a faked signature - - on top of the sig looking very untypical, how likely was Armstrong to sign a book he's not connected with, and an ex-library copy to boot?).

Each signed piece must be judged on its own.
I'd NOT dismiss an uninscribed Armstrong WSS litho on Ebay by a seller with 0 feedback out of hand. Some would, and THAT'S unfortunate. (It will be good in the long run however for those who have items with "unassailable" signatures and/or rock solid documentation of authenticity).

posted 07-08-2003 01:22 PM               

You are always so quick to correct me but I believe you have missed the mark this time.

Originally posted by eurospace:

Mike,

"Nothing can stop a forger to procure himself with the appropriate stamp or souvenir sheet and produce a fake autograph on it."

If I were just throwing up a smokescreen, instead of talking about a couple of transposed letters (an honest mistake made by both Andrew and myself), I might mention poor grammar and construction. From a person who uses their words for a living, this would appear quite revealing. However, this isn't about a smokescreen, strawman argument, poor grammar, or spelling.

"The difference is of course documentation. This particular issue of signed souvenir sheets were all provided with the appropriate documentation by the seller."

I have a full Sieger set purchased from a German dealer with an excellent reputation. These came complete with the "appropraite documentation." What additional insurance does that get me? Documentation like any COA can easily be faked or copied. As long as the forger can get the item to be signed, it can be faked and even documented. The example you sent me could just as well included of included a COA. My original point a year or so ago was that stamp blocks and limited edition prints are probably as good a source of authentic Armstrongs as one can find. You pointed out how easliy the stamps can be obtained and corrected me. You can't have it both ways. It still comes down to JUDGING if the signature is questionable. I still believe that art prints are fairly safe since they are not readily available and the multi-signature ones would be a real pain to fake. However, like anything else, it could still be done. Never underestimate a determined crook!

"The guy's name is Sieger. S-i-e-g-e-r. Spelling of names is important, particularly if we're dealing with things that are nothing but - names written down."

Along these lines, I have hit an occasional bargain by finding incorrectly listed items. These include calling prints by the wrong name, listing in wrong areas for a search to catch, spelling names like Jon Glen, ... At times, others mistakes can be helpful.

Hang in there,

Mike Joner

posted 07-09-2003 04:34 AM               

Should you feel the urge to endeavour into any other language than your own, go ahead and show us what you got!

Florian Noller is indeed an excellent and trustworthy source.

Still, if you got your signed souvenir sheets with a written certificate of the company that produced them in a limited edition, that would be better. Sieger is as trustworthy as they come and one of the big names in aerophilately (with astrophilately as a sidekick).

With COA's, they are as worthy or unworthy as the name who provides them. All is in the reputation.

You are of course right that one can sometimes make a good deal with people who sell a Jon Glen or Neal Armstrong autograph. They probably know nothing about John Glenn or astronaut autographs at all, and even less about their prices and values. "Idiots" are often easy to take advantage from. Their word on their stuff being "100% authentic" is of course worth nothing and you're completely on your own when it comes to judging the quality of a piece.

Sieger, is, btw, as easy to spell as is Joner. Try Jugdermidiyn Gurraggchaa from Ulan Bataar (the first and only Mongolian cosmonaut) or Ruslan Rukhmanovich Mukhamedrakhimov (a new Kazak cosmonaut rookie) and we talk about a challenge .... Sometimes, it's all about care and consideration, and when discussing authenticity, care and consideration are certainly not a bad guideline to follow.

------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies

posted 07-09-2003 10:26 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by xxcygni:

Along these lines, I have hit an occasional bargain by finding incorrectly listed items. These include calling prints by the wrong name, listing in wrong areas for a search to catch, spelling names like Jon Glen, ... At times, others mistakes can be helpful.

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You mean like the one on eBay signed by a very valuable deceased moon voyager that's in the wrong category and doesn't even mention his name anywhere in the ad? But I'll never tell... heheh....uh heh heh heh.... uh BWAHAHAHA!... pardon me.
Best regards,
Rumplestiltskin

posted 07-09-2003 12:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by John K. Rochester:
.....to quote the one and only Rodney King.." Cant we all just get along!!"

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Of course, the one and only really famous Rodney King has continued to show his social skills every few months as he involves himself in another 'adventure' with law enforcement officials.

Of course, the answer is yes, we can all get along. However, it has been a continual pattern with Mr. Esders that one can only get along after he delivers his lecture, raises a few side issues to muddy the waters, brings morals, ethics, or social skills into the discussion, and gets the last word!

Notice that this discussion is supposed to be about forging Armstrong autographs. Suddenly, we are discussing the problems of how to spell S-i-e-g-e-r, the problems of being multilingual, if it is more difficult to spell Joner than Kamehameha Humuhumunukunukuapua'a, and if something is ALWAYS good because there was at some point an authorized signing. All I stated was that Mr. Esders proved to me that it is not always the case when he mailed an image of a forged Armstrong on a Belgian stamp block like the ones used in the Sieger sets. I thanked him for that effort.

BTW, I forgot my manners. I have tried to be polite to Mr. Esders but if I remember, it may be Dr. Esders. If my form of address has been offensive, I ask to be forgiven. Another point, while I have purchased many times from Florian Noller, he is not the only reputable German dealer. My Sieger set came from another source. I am sure you know him as well. However, you just demonstrated how easy it is to make poor assumptions. Further, I will grant that Florian may have even owned my set at one time in the past. You might have even owned it but I did not purchase it from either of you.

One last point, I'll discuss relationships between various forms of hypergeometric equations and the Bessel functions, Legendre polynomials, and Chebyshev functions that provide the solutions. We can even talk about the relevance to stellar pulsation theory provided by spherical harmonics. That is if we were discussing strictly radial modes and did not want to get too complicated.

posted 07-09-2003 03:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott:
...or the Theory of Relativity: An autograph that one owns or has owned in the past appears to be more authentic than an autograph someone else owns.
Speaking of Einstein, did I mention the signed book I got for $223? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3526865027
Tee hee!
God I'm bad...
Later,
Rumple

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Howdy Rump!

Seems to be a true statement to me observing the state of the hobby. Kind of brings a whole new meaning to provenance!

The Einstein is wonderful from my point of view. However, I claim no knowledge of his autograph other than a general familiarity with a few examples. I would love to have a nice signed volume like that at such a reasonable price. I hope it proves to be as nice as it looks. Well done.

One more point getting back to the Armstrong blocks signed for the Sieger sets. These are not to my knowledge really that well documented. I have never seen one with any indication of what number of the limited edition it represents. The blocks are not numbered nor are any certificates of documentation that I have ever seen or seen offered with any of blocks. Of course, since many of the Armstrong and Swigert blocks were sold seperate, documentation usually has not followed the various owners. In fact, maybe I should check my complete set with documentation a little closer. I found an obvious mistake. It clearly states - "NASA Astronaut seit September 1962, Pilot von Gemini VII (er flog am 16. Marz 1966 zusammen mit David R. Scott)." Of course, that should be Gemini VIII and so it seems that my German documentation has let me down. Maybe I should be a little less trusting.

I apologize in advance for the way I wrote March in German but my system does not allow me to do it correctly. It is likely just my own shortcoming.

Sincerely to all,