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  Where to see an F-1 from a Saturn V?

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Author Topic:   Where to see an F-1 from a Saturn V?
stsmithva
Member

Posts: 1319
From: Centreville, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 10-31-2009 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stsmithva   Click Here to Email stsmithva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A somewhat clueless post of mine on another forum made me realize that I have never seen one of the Saturn V first-stage rocket engines: the F-1. (Apparently they are much, much, much larger than I had pictured in my mind. Much.)

I've checked the Field Guide to American Spacecraft and seen that there are Saturn Vs (including a 1:1 model and just the first stage) at Kennedy Space Center, Houston, Huntsville, and New Orleans.

Just to check: are there any single F-1s closer than a thousand miles from Virginia?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-31-2009 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is an F-1 on display at the National Air and Space Museum as part of the Apollo To The Moon gallery on the second floor. The display uses a complete engine as well as a quarter of another and mirrors to create the impression that you looking at the aft end of the Saturn V.


Credit: Smithsonian

There is also an F-1 engine on display at the Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly.

stsmithva
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Posts: 1319
From: Centreville, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 10-31-2009 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stsmithva   Click Here to Email stsmithva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well that's just embarrassing. I can picture the toothpaste tube on the wall of Apollo-flown items at the National Air and Space Museum, but I don't remember that enormous "F-1 with a mirror" display.

As for the one at Udvar-Hazy, they must have just installed it last week. Because I just CAN'T have been that distracted all those times I've walked around the aft end of Enterprise. [Emoticon for confessing further cluelessness.]

Thanks Robert, always nice to have something specific to look forward to the next time I visit there.

AlanLawrie
Member

Posts: 70
From: hitchin, herts, UK
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 10-31-2009 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, now that you've asked the question it gives me an unashamed chance to plug my latest activity - namely locating and identifying all the remaining F-1 and J-2 rocket engines around the world.

Not an easy task which is why it has taken 2 years. Anyway with the job now done the results will be seeing the light of day shortly. Stay tuned to collectSPACE and Apogee books.

ColinBurgess
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Posts: 1567
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 10-31-2009 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ColinBurgess   Click Here to Email ColinBurgess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alan: I'm assuming you've been told about the F-1 engine on permanent display at the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney?

AlanLawrie
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Posts: 70
From: hitchin, herts, UK
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 10-31-2009 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Colin, yes indeed. In fact it was only last week that together with the help of the curator at the Powerhouse (who managed to photograph the ident plate on the engine which is suspended from the ceiling) and retirees from Rocketdyne that we managed to identify the engine for the first time. We now have its history which will be recorded in the museum. The engine is actually on loan from the Smithsonian until at least 2017.

ilbasso
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Posts: 1494
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 10-31-2009 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ilbasso   Click Here to Email ilbasso     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve, there's also one at the Udvar-Hazy Center, or at least there was last time I was there. It's at the back of the Space Shuttle hangar, to the right of the Enterprise as you walk toward the back of the hangar.

Jurg Bolli
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Posts: 520
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-02-2009 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jurg Bolli   Click Here to Email Jurg Bolli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although not within 1000 miles of Virginia, the New Mexico Museum of Space History in Alamogordo has one as well.

E2M Lem Man
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Posts: 793
From: Los Angeles CA. USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 11-02-2009 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for E2M Lem Man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For west coasters, there is an F-1 that is at the old Rocketdyne (now Pratt and Whitney) plant on Canoga Ave, north of Victory, in Canoga Park. Standing in its glory of about 17 feet high, it is hard to miss, and since this is one of the construction sites for the F-1, it is a reverent spot. Park in the visitor spots though, as the people inside are building new rocket engines for Delta IVs. That is the only thing to see at that plant - sorry!

But there is a museum of sorts, at the Santa Susana plant (similar to ALF) run by the retirees that built the Rocketdyne engines and tested them nearby.

AlanLawrie
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Posts: 70
From: hitchin, herts, UK
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-02-2009 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Both previous posters are correct. The F-1 at Alamogordo is F-6067, originally destined for Apollo 15. The F-1 at P&W Rocketdyne is EM-1 (Engineering model 1) put in place on the 10th anniversary of the first moon landing.

Lunar rock nut
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Posts: 680
From: Oklahoma city, Oklahoma U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 11-05-2009 08:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lunar rock nut   Click Here to Email Lunar rock nut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Science Museum of Oklahoma A.K.A. Omniplex of Oklahoma City has an F-1 and a J-2 displayed on the main floor. Thomas Stafford's museum in Weatherford, Oklahoma also has an F-1 on display along with many other engines from Gemini and other programs.

AlanLawrie
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Posts: 70
From: hitchin, herts, UK
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-05-2009 11:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Right again! Both of these are R&D models. Look closely at the one at the Omniplex and you will see that it doesn't have an injector installed. The one at Stafford was never fired.

mikej
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Posts: 374
From: Germantown, WI USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-05-2009 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikej   Click Here to Email mikej     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since it looks like we've removed the "1000 miles from Virginia" constraint, I can point out a number of stand-alone F-1 displays: Alas, the F-1 was not on display at Udvar-Hazy when I visited two summers ago.

Alan made reference to his list of the current locations of the remaining F-1 engines -- sounds like Jim Gerard's not the only one who has a vacation planner!

GACspaceguy
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Posts: 1394
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 11-05-2009 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GACspaceguy   Click Here to Email GACspaceguy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are the F-1 and J-2 engines at the Omniplex of Oklahoma City:

And the F-1 at the Stafford:

Mr Meek
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Posts: 348
From: Chattanooga, TN
Registered: Dec 2007

posted 11-05-2009 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr Meek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike, I didn't know that was your site. Nifty.

Alan, I know I've told you this via email, but I'll say it publicly: I love your books, and am really looking forward to the F-1 book. I can't count the number of times I've grabbed both Saturn books to look something up before posting here.

Paul78zephyr
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Posts: 344
From: Hudson, MA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 03-28-2013 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul78zephyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How many basically flight worthy - but unflown - F-1 engines are still in existence and where are they?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

EDIT: Okay, this thread answers much of that question. Thank you.

New question: 65 F-1 engines flew on 13 Saturn Vs but does anyone know how many flight rated F-1 engines in total were originally manufactured by Rocketdyne? I assume each engine had a serial number (like SSMEs). Does anyone have a SN list of all the flight rated F-1 engines. I did read Anthony Young's F-1 very good book many years ago but I don't recall the book having that information but I could be mistaken as my memory fails.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 27328
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-28-2013 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
There is also an F-1 engine on display at the Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly.
To keep this topic current, the F-1 engine that was previously on display at the Udvar-Hazy Center is now at Marshall Space Flight Center, supporting new engine development efforts.

mikej
Member

Posts: 374
From: Germantown, WI USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 03-28-2013 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikej   Click Here to Email mikej     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Paul78zephyr:
65 F-1 engines flew on 13 Saturn Vs but does anyone know how many flight rated F-1 engines in total were originally manufactured by Rocketdyne?
It depends on what you mean by "flight rated."

There were 98 production F-1 engines manufactured, although many of the early engines were used for ground testing; of the first 16 production engines, only 6 were earmarked for flight (the five on SA-501, plus a spare).

I don't know if you want to equate "production" engines to "flight rated."

There were additionally a good number of R&D engines, general engine mockups, and engineering mockups manufactured. R&D engines were used throughout the program to test proposed changes (and some to test changes proposed for the F-1A).

Anthony Young's book doesn't have a comprehensive list of serial numbers. I have a memo on my website which has a list of all of the production serial numbers (the memo discusses configuration changes introduced at various points in the program). My site also has photos of 34 1/4 of the 37 1/4 remaining F-1 engines; refer to the lists of Saturn Vs, S-IC stages, and stand-alone F-1 engines. (No, I haven't seen the F-1 engine parts recently raised from the ocean depths, but I'm working that!)

The only comprehensive list of F-1 engines, their serial numbers, their allocation, and their current disposition of which I'm aware is Alan Lawrie's Saturn.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should mention that I assisted him with the second edition of the book, contributing the current location and photos of many F-1s. However, other than an autographed copy of the book, I receive no monetary benefits from the sale of the book.

Stafford Air&Space
New Member

Posts: 8
From: Weatherford, OK USA
Registered: Mar 2013

posted 03-29-2013 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stafford Air&Space   Click Here to Email Stafford Air&Space     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We would like to share a couple of current photos of our F-1 and J-2 engines on display.

F-1 Engine photo DSC_0601_zps058f4194.jpg

 photo DSC_0586_zps2ee0a024.jpg

AlanLawrie
Member

Posts: 70
From: hitchin, herts, UK
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 03-29-2013 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As Mike mentioned, my Saturn book lists all the F-1 serial numbers and the locations and useage. I also had a two-part article published recently in Spaceflight magazine on the whereabouts of all the Earthbound F-1s.

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