Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

  collectSPACE: Messages
  Exploration: Moon to Mars
  [Discuss] Politics of Artemis moon missions (Page 2)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search


This topic is 3 pages long:   1  2  3 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   [Discuss] Politics of Artemis moon missions
Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-02-2019 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On Wednesday (May 1), NASA began distributing a document titled "Why Gateway?" summarizes why NASA thinks a space station near the moon is critical to human exploration. It was first shared internally by the Gateway program office at Johnson Space Center in Houston. The document can be read here via Ars Technica.
NASA is developing a two-phased approach to quickly return humans to the Moon and establish a sustainable presence in orbit and on the surface. The two phases run in parallel, and both have already begun.

Phase 1 is driven exclusively by the administration’s priority to land the next American man and the first American woman on the Moon by 2024. In this phase, NASA and its industry partners will develop and deploy two Gateway components: the Power and Propulsion Element (PPE) that will launch in 2022, and a minimal habitation capability that will launch in 2023. Both will launch on commercial rockets. This initial Gateway configuration represents the beginning of its capability buildup, and the primary components required to support the first human expedition to the lunar South Pole.

Phase 2 is focused on advancing the technologies that will foster a sustainable presence on and around the Moon – a lasting and productive presence enabled by reusable systems, access for a diverse body of contributing partners, and repeatable trips to multiple destinations across the lunar surface.

While the Gateway is the first of its kind to be funded, the concept has been proposed for decades as a necessary and foundational capability for a sustainable return to the Moon, and a port for vehicles embarking to farther destinations. It supports every tenet of Space Policy Directive 1 and the infrastructure it provides is critical to an accelerated return to the Moon.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-13-2019 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From President Donald Trump on Twitter:
Under my Administration, we are restoring NASA to greatness and we are going back to the Moon, then Mars. I am updating my budget to include an additional $1.6 billion so that we can return to Space in a BIG WAY!
From NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine on Twitter:
Big NASA news! The President has submitted an FY2020 budget amendment that provides an increase of $1.6 billion for our Moon 2024 efforts. We are going.

This is the down payment NASA needs to move forward with design, development and exploration. It includes funding for:

  • Human lunar landing system
  • SLS and Orion
  • Exploration technologies
  • Robotic exploration of the Moon's polar regions
While there are many steps ahead in the budget and appropriations process, this is an exciting time to be a part of the NASA family!

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-13-2019 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA release
America to the Moon by 2024

NASA's FY 2020 Budget Amendment Summary

The President challenged NASA to land the first American woman and next American man at the South Pole of the Moon by 2024, followed by a sustained presence on the Moon by 2028.
This FY 2020 budget amendment provides an increase of $1.6 billion above the President's initial $21 billion budget request to accelerate our return to the lunar surface. This additional investment is a down payment on NASA's efforts to land humans on the Moon by 2024, and is required to achieve that bold objective. It's the boost NASA needs to move forward with design, development and exploration.
For 60 years, American investment in NASA has yielded innumerable returns through advances in science, technology, medicine, education and industry. Exploring the Moon helps us create a vibrant future:

  • Establishes American leadership and strategic presence
  • Proves technologies, capabilities and new business approaches for future missions to Mars
  • Leads groundbreaking science about the Moon and the solar system
  • Inspires a new generation, and encourages careers in STEM
  • Drives development of technologies of the future
  • Expands U.S. global economic impact; and
  • Grows U.S. industry and international partnerships.
Budget Amendment Breakdown

This is a good budget amendment for NASA, on top of a strong initial budget request. It adds funding for deep space exploration, science and technology. Outside of descoping Gateway capabilities, no NASA programs were cut:

  • Human Lunar Landing System: This budget includes $1 billion to enable NASA to begin supporting the development of commercial human lunar landing systems three years earlier than previously envisioned to bring humans to the Moon's surface by 2024.
    • This acquisition strategy will allow NASA to purchase an integrated commercial lunar lander that will transport astronauts from lunar orbit to the lunar surface and back.

    • Focusing Gateway development on capabilities needed to support a lunar landing of 2024 allowed a scope reduction of $321 million. This budget amendment shifts potential development of additional Gateway capabilities into the future.

  • Space Launch System Rocket and Orion Spacecraft: With an additional $651 million for SLS and Orion, this budget supports the most powerful rocket in the world and our new spacecraft to ultimately take the astronauts to the staging point for reaching the lunar surface, the Gateway in lunar orbit.

  • Exploration Technology: An additional $132 million for technologies that will support NASA to advance key precursor capabilities on the lunar surface. This includes various exploration technologies like solar electric propulsion and a demonstration converting polar ice to water.

  • Science: An augmentation of $90 million to enable increased robotic exploration of the Moon's polar regions in advance of a human mission.
We Are Going Together

To land American astronauts on the Moon by 2024, we are working through the acquisition approach for the various projects. Our efforts will include new work at NASA centers to provide the key technologies and scientific payloads needed for the lunar surface, adding to efforts already underway across the country.

To achieve our goals, we will not go forward alone. Strong commercial partnerships will accelerate our human exploration plans. International partners also remain a vital part of our lunar plan and will contribute to the goal of creating a sustained lunar presence by 2028.

Going forward, additional funds will be required in the 2020s, and a refined estimate will be submitted as part of the FY 2021 President's budget request.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-13-2019 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Trump administration is hoping to shift money for Pell Grants for college education to fund new spending, including $1.6 billion for NASA, reports the Associated Press.
Officials insisted the re-allocation of the Pell Grant money would have no impact on those receiving grants, which help low-income students pay for college.

"This does not cut any spending for Pell Grant programs as the budget continues to ensure all students will get their full Pell Grant and keeps the program on sound fiscal footing," Office of Management and Budget spokesman Wesley Denton said in a statement.

LM1
Member

Posts: 861
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010

posted 05-26-2019 07:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM1   Click Here to Email LM1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hope that VP Pence is correct. I would like to see a return to the Moon in my lifetime. I also would like to see China succeed with their plans. It is only 60 months from now.

Has Buzz Aldrin commented on the 5-year plan to return to the Moon?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-26-2019 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aldrin supported Pence's goal while calling for a renewed push towards Mars in a May 1, 2019 op-ed for The Washington Post:
Last month, Vice President Pence announced that we are headed back to the moon. I am with him, in spirit and aspiration. Having been there, I can say it is high time we returned. When Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins and I went to the moon 50 years ago this July, we did so with a mission. Apollo 11 aimed to prove America's can-do commitment to space exploration, as well as its national security and technological superiority. We did all that. We also "Came in Peace for all Mankind." More of that is needed now.

Today, many nations have eyes for the moon, from China and Russia to friends in Europe and Middle East. That is all good. The United States should cooperate — and offer itself as a willing team leader — in exploring every aspect of the moon, from its geology and topography to its hydrology and cosmic history. In doing so, we can take "low-Earth orbit" cooperation to the moon, openly, eagerly and collegially.

Meanwhile, another looming orb — the red one — should become a serious focus of U.S. attention. Mars is waiting to be discovered, not by clever robots and rovers — though I support NASA's unmanned missions — but by living, breathing, walking, talking, caring and daring men and women.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-07-2019 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And then again, maybe not...

From President Donald Trump on Twitter today (June 7):

For all of the money we are spending, NASA should NOT be talking about going to the Moon - We did that 50 years ago. They should be focused on the much bigger things we are doing, including Mars (of which the Moon is a part), Defense and Science!
(If you're wondering why Trump would tweet such a thing, he was watching Fox.)

Steven Kaplan
Member

Posts: 157
From: New Jersey
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 06-07-2019 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steven Kaplan   Click Here to Email Steven Kaplan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...including Mars (of which the Moon is a part)
Can any of our members explain this comment? Thank you.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-07-2019 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As noted, he was watching Fox and presumably badly paraphrased NASA chief financial officer Jeff DeWit's comments about the moon being part of NASA's efforts to send humans to Mars.

Headshot
Member

Posts: 1221
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 06-07-2019 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Headshot   Click Here to Email Headshot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But he still wants us to land, presumably on Mars now, by 2024. Right?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-07-2019 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine's response to the President (via Twitter):
As the President said, NASA is using the moon to send humans to Mars! Right now, Curiosity and InSight are on Mars and will soon be joined by the Mars 2020 rover and the Mars helicopter.

oly
Member

Posts: 1450
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015

posted 06-07-2019 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think this clarification helps much.

We do not get FOX, or know how this shapes the context of these statements, I will leave it to others to explain to me what this all means. Is the trip back to the moon still on?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-07-2019 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From SpaceNews:
Trump’s tweet took the space community by surprise. There was no indication prior to that tweet that the White House was reconsidering the goal of returning humans to the moon by 2024, or at all. A human lunar return has been national policy since President Trump signed Space Policy Directive 1 in December 2017...

A White House official, speaking on background, argued that Mars has always been the long-term goal of the administration. "We have asked Congress for additional resources to get to the Moon by 2024, which will enable us to get to Mars roughly a decade after creating a sustainable presence on the lunar surface," the official said.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-13-2019 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA will need an estimated $20 billion to $30 billion over the next five years for its moon project, NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine told CNN Business on Thursday (June 13).
That would mean adding another $4 billion to $6 billion per year, on average, to the agency's budget, which is already expected to be about $20 billion annually.

Bridenstine's remarks are the first time that NASA has shared a total cost estimate for its moon program, which is called Artemis (after the Greek goddess of the moon) and could send people to the moon for the first time in half a century...

The $20 to $30 billion cost estimate is less expensive than some had predicted — though they're not necessarily the final figures. Bridenstine acknowledged that spaceflight can be dangerous and unpredictable, so it's practically impossible to settle on an accurate price tag.

"We're negotiating within the administration," he said. "We're talking to [the federal Office of Management and Budget]; we're talking to the National Space Council."

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 1092
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 06-23-2019 09:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an issue with NASA and it goes something like this:

On September 12, 1962, John F. Kennedy made his famous we are going to the moon speech. At that time we had nothing to get there. No flight hardware, no launchpads, no vehicle processing facilities, no rocket engines powerful enough to lift the payload, no lander to get us to the surface, no computers to help with the design and most of all no proven science to rely on for any of this, It was all new.

With the total lack of all hardware, software and support facilities it took the USA less then 8 years to develop all of this and to land a man on the moon and return him safely to Earth.

Now we are going back to the moon. We have everything listed above built, either flight tested or undergoing testing and almost ready to go. With almost no development needed, no infrastructure to build for launch operations, there is only habitat and lunar logistics to consider. NASA has been working on lunar operations for many years and we have super powerful computers to aid in our designs. With most of our issues solved our hardware built, our designs well underway, NASA now says it will take 10 years and 30 billion dollars to accomplish this task.

I am sorry but the only rationale that I can come up with is mismanagement, waste and utter incompetence. SLS is years behind and billions over budget. We need management that can run an efficient operations and delegate operations to qualified and capable people, that can keep development and construction on track, that can see the problem during development and not far after the failure. We need contractors that return to quality manufacturing and be held to account when they fail and most of all a country that stands behind the idea of space exploration.

I am 100% for our return to the moon and missions to Mars but without competent management were just pissing away money with no results.

SpaceAholic
Member

Posts: 5246
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-23-2019 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In today's dollars the Apollo effort would cost well north of $100 billion. It's not so much mismanagement but rather lack of sustained, committed fiscal resources to achieve a more aggressive timeline.

As for the hardware, only a portion of it exists (lunar architecture the primary gap); all need to be integrated as a man rated operational system (not just plug an play of various off the shelf technologies).

oly
Member

Posts: 1450
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015

posted 06-24-2019 12:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Apollo had been set a goal, land a man on the moon and return him safely to Earth, and a timeline, by the end of the decade. These two simple instructions were enough to set in play an engineering and science juggernaut that was justified as a way of beating the Soviets to the moon.

The Apollo program overcame some serious setbacks and disasters, including the Apollo 1 fire and crew loss, to successfully achieve the goal set upon it within the timeline laid down. Many of the interviews with the people involved with the Apollo program state that they felt that they were doing their part in a grand plan, and everybody knew what the goal was.

The programs in place today have happened from former programs and plans. Consecutive administrations laid out dreams and wish lists of what could be, however many of these schemes were fashioned to prevent job losses, maintain some kind of ability to conduct large spaceflight programs, and maintain the United States ability to lead the field of science and technology within the space industry.

While the space shuttle program was a fantastic engineering achievement, it missed a lot of marks and was never allowed to evolve as a system. I could rattle off a huge list of what should or could have happened if the shuttle flew before Skylab re-entered, of what may have been if the Saturn series of rockets had been maintained. All of these systems perhaps should have been allowed to evolve as designs and benefit from improvements and advancements made in materials and technology.

The SLS rocket has occurred because the space shuttle system retirement, with instructions to strip the old program of as many useable assets as possible, maintain some of the workforce and capability, and plod along at a rate that allows technology to overtake the design between missions.

There has not been a concise directive about what form NASA's next generation of development should take form consecutive administrations, and a failure to do so has left the industry scrambling to be a part of whatever was on the table.

A layman would have difficulty understanding why it is so problematic to take the fuel tank and solid rocket motors from the space shuttle, make them bigger, and still not have them ready to fly a decade after the NASA Authorization Act of 2010 was signed. Part of this act stated to "Provide a sustainable space exploration program to incorporate new technologies and in-space capabilities." However, no program came to fruition within the 2016 timeline laid down. People familiar with the concept of the Apollo era heavy-lift rocket may have a hard time figuring out what is so difficult getting a heavy lift rocket into service without being aware of the intricacies of government budgets, programs, management.

I often wonder why the SLS rocket is allowed to continue development along the same path, while technology has overtaken the architecture of the time SLS was shoehorned into being.

The original intent of the service and propulsion module for Orion has been changed, delayed, taken off the table, or abandoned, and Orion has been designed to do many things well, but none of them great. The Apollo command module was designed for a specific purpose, and nothing more. This simple approach resulted in mission success, and it rode upon a service module overengineered and overpowered for propose (a module that also worked for LEO missions).

Questions about what directions need to be issued to enable NASA to manage the next phase of the journey further from Earth can be easily defined. The recent mixed messages being transmitted from Washington about going to the Moon seem to confuse the public and the space industry management about what level of commitment and intent any program in play will receive. Asking a dozen companies to put forward schemes and ideas on how to achieve things indicates that there is not a solid plan at play, and support of any potential program will wane without an enthusiastic public and industry to let the administers know what they want.

The technology to fly a crew to the Moon, land, walk around, drive around, and come home, exists. The technology to fly a vehicle to Mars, land it autonomously, and drive it remotely exists. The technology to launch and fly back a first stage rocket exists and the environment of the lunar surface is understood. Long duration spaceflight in LEO has established what type of questions need to be asked about extended time in space, and the hazards of radiation and other environmental factors can be addressed or reduced.

This leaves the unknowns and the risk, combined with the cost, as a counterbalance on the scale used to measure the feasibility of any program. Fear of any of these renders the whole thing moot, and programs will plod along touting benefits and advantages without achieving the mission objective.

Some of the children who watched Apollo land on the Moon now have grandchildren of their own. A generation of people grew up without seeing humans venture further from home, and government commitment to any program only continues while the governors believe that there is either something in it for them, of that that the program is what the people want.

The resultant from all this has equated in where we are today. A program without a clear destination or timeline. Every program that is delayed or stalled cost additional funds, and continually moving the goalposts has led many fans to pack up and leave. The risk-averse have filled the grandstands.

I do not have an issue with NASA per se, my issue is with the lack of specific direction and support for any program, a lack of accountability for failed or undelivered enterprise, and constant failure to enable design evolution and development of the existing design. There is no one administration or party to blame for this lack of motivation. The decline has been in force for many decades through many administrations. I put some slight hope in the 'Return astronauts to the moon by 2024' announcement made by Pence, and I admit that a part of me felt excitement over a new program of action.

Recovering an asteroid and towing it somewhere to study can only yield results that boffins and scientists understand or care for. Today's public wants spacecraft with cameras showing every angle of a launch or mission, with surround sound and immersive experiences that cater to everybody. The next people to walk on the Moon, whatever nation they are from, better take some time out to shine a spotlight back on earth, so that the neigh Sayers have something new to discuss. NASA needs to provide the public with the entertainment so that they receive the support needed.

Like many others, I am disheartened over missed opportunities and changed plans, and hope that something good comes from this latest scheme.

perineau
Member

Posts: 368
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 09-19-2019 03:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for perineau   Click Here to Email perineau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My concern here is that SpaceNews is reporting that Congress has not appropriated the additional funding necessary for the goal of a lunar landing in 2024; not to mention that Orion, commercial crew and SLS programs are all behind schedule, which doesn't bode well for NASA's reputation.

Additionally, when we see that Soyuz missions have been cut to two next year instead of four, I wonder if there is really a political will to pursue manned space exploration in the immediate future.

TobiasC
Member

Posts: 19
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: Jan 2018

posted 09-19-2019 03:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TobiasC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I agree with you on the other stuff, but the number of Soyuz missions is being cut down because that’s when the Starliner and Crew Dragon will start ferrying crew members to the ISS, so not as many Soyuz will be needed every year.

perineau
Member

Posts: 368
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 09-19-2019 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for perineau   Click Here to Email perineau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Point taken, except that if you look at spacefacts.de under the heading "launch schedule," you'll see a lot of question marks concerning Dragon and Starliner launch dates!

issman1
Member

Posts: 1106
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005

posted 09-19-2019 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for issman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seems to an outsider like myself that Artemis is going the same direction of Constellation.

If that aspirational date of 2024 is to be realised then it will take a miracle of epic proportions.

What is most telling is that none of Trump's contenders have gone on record to back Artemis other than pay lip service to its gesture and identity politics angle: that of sending the first woman and next man on or to the moon.

p51
Member

Posts: 1769
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 09-19-2019 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by oly:
A layman would have difficulty understanding why it is so problematic to take the fuel tank and solid rocket motors from the space shuttle, make them bigger, and still not have them ready to fly a decade after the NASA Authorization Act of 2010 was signed.
Agreed. The layman wouldn't have a clue how many corners were cut (either through "go fever," arrogance over thinking they had everything figured out, or sheer ignorance of the dangers of going to the Moon and back and being lucky that nobody died on Apollo missions after the fire), either.

Once one really looks into Apollo, knowing how many things NASA really didn't "get" even during the program, it becomes amazing we sent astronauts there and had them all come back from those launches.

Simply put, without such a high-speed and pressing mandate to go to the Moon, supported politically for a little while, we never would have landed people there. Losing the orbiters Challenger and Columbia slapped America back to reality more so than the Apollo 1 fire had, in my opinion. After that, the laymen SURELY understood the risk and the cost of going into space.

Accordingly, in a risk-adverse world we live in now where even those in the military are practically bubble-wrapped for combat (seriously, nobody wore bullet proof armor when I served in the 90s and early 2000s), nobody wants to accept the risks that NASA took send people to the Moon in the 1960s.

This is why you cannot draw a parallel between this mandate and JFK's. I still can't say if we'd landed a man on the moon before 1970 if JFK hadn't been shot (most historians agree that we wouldn't have gotten into 'Nam, so the money argument wouldn't have been made if we'd never fought there). But the idea that we can do what the country did in the 60s now, in an era where everything has to be uber safe and not accepting any risks, is laughable.

Delta7
Member

Posts: 1733
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007

posted 09-30-2019 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm excited at the prospect of this actually happening. However my fear is that whomever comes up with a plan will run headfirst into the thick ooze that is government bureaucracy. Like running a marathon wearing cement boots.

perineau
Member

Posts: 368
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 10-01-2019 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for perineau   Click Here to Email perineau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My concern is that NASA is on such a short money leash because of Congress. When you think that Orion has been in development for over 8 years (2011-2019) will still no manned flights in the near future (the space shuttle program began in 1972 and flew a manned mission in space 9 years later), and the commercial crew program is also years behind schedule...it's hard for me to believe we'll return to the moon in 2024, sadly enough...

328KF
Member

Posts: 1388
From:
Registered: Apr 2008

posted 10-01-2019 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 328KF   Click Here to Email 328KF     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The saddest truth of this is the fact that politicians who oppose the President will hold up funding for the program simply because its "his" program. And given the chance, another President would probably cancel it outright for the same reason.

Not much is going to get done funding-wise in the near term due to the current preoccupation of one party to remove the President (and his lunar plan) from office by way of impeachment.

perineau
Member

Posts: 368
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 10-01-2019 10:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for perineau   Click Here to Email perineau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Point taken about the Democratic House today; however don't forget that the Republicans were in charge of Congress between 2014-2018, so I think it's a "bi-partisan" problem!

328KF
Member

Posts: 1388
From:
Registered: Apr 2008

posted 10-01-2019 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 328KF   Click Here to Email 328KF     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Totally agree, it goes both ways many times. But this is another level!

And understand my point... if the tables were turned in the current situation, we’d still be facing the same problem with getting on with Artemis. The partisanship has taken over Washington like never before.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-01-2019 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Work is continuing in both houses of Congress with regards to Artemis, and it is not just one party raising questions about the administration's plans.

The (Republican-led) Senate Appropriations Committee on Sept. 26 approved (31 to 0) an appropriations bill that provided $744.1 million for lunar lander development, versus the White House's request for $1 billion. The committee report stated:

While there is support for the mission, it is difficult to weigh the impacts of the accelerated mission on the overall budget of NASA with only a single year budget proposal.

...the Committee has provided funds to allow for NASA to advance its human exploration program and awaits further definition of the program and its estimated associated costs.

Blackarrow
Member

Posts: 3604
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 10-02-2019 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What is the current thinking about actually transporting the "new LM" to lunar orbit (or, I suppose, to the Lunar Gateway)? Is SLS powerful enough to launch Orion plus crew plus "new LM" or will the lander require a separate launch (and, if so, on what?)

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 01-27-2020 09:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The House of Representatives' Science Committee has introduced a NASA authorization bill that no longer has the goal of returning humans to the surface of the moon by 2024 in favor of a Moon to Mars program. From SpaceNews:
"The Moon to Mars program shall have the interim goal of sending a crewed mission to the lunar surface by 2028 and a goal of sending a crewed mission to orbit Mars by 2033," the bill states.

The bill would direct NASA to have "full ownership" of a lunar lander rather than buy services from companies. It would also require at least one uncrewed and one crewed test flight of the lander, something not explicitly required by NASA in its current plans...

Moreover, the bill directs NASA to develop a human lunar lander "as an integrated lunar landing system carried on an Exploration Upper Stage-enhanced Space Launch System," known as SLS Block 1B...

The bill directs NASA to identify "the minimum set of human and robotic lunar surface activities that must be completed to enable a human mission to Mars" and how NASA will complete those activities within five years of the first crewed landing under the program.

Headshot
Member

Posts: 1221
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 01-27-2020 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Headshot   Click Here to Email Headshot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It will be interesting to see how this bill is marked up later this week. Just some random comments from my quick skimming of this bill.
  1. Looks like there will be more reporting back to Congress than ever before. Is this micro-managing? I think there have been several Dilbert cartoons about this.

  2. The 2024 lunar landing goal seems too close to me to adequately design and build the equipment. Heck, Bridenstine hasn't even been able to deliver a detailed cost breakdown for Artemis to Congress and it has been almost three-quarters of a year. A 2028 date seems too far as it only allows five years between the lunar landing and the Mars landing. Maybe 2026 would be a better choice? That way there is a seven year period until the first Mars landing.

  3. I like the idea of different Orion service modules for different missions. Hope to see this expanded upon, better yet, funded.

  4. Having NASA take ownership of the lunar lander is interesting. I wonder what motivated THAT shift?

  5. This is certainly a windfall for Boeing. The proscribed rate of two lunar landings a year means four SLS launches a year, plus those for other non-lunar landing missions such as the Europa Clipper etc.

  6. This bill does not address the fact that Pad 39B is, inofitself, a single-point failure. One pad explosion of an SLS at the pad and that 2033 Mars landing date goes right out the window. As info, the spreadsheet I examined gave an April 2033 launch for a December 2033 arrival at Mars.

  7. I did not see any reference to the length of stay on Mars before beginning the return to Earth. Maybe the politicians are finally leaving something for the engineers.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 01-27-2020 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With regards to your second point, the White House and NASA are expected to release the full Artemis plan and out-years budget on Feb. 10 with the release of the President's FY2020 budget request.

To your last point, just to clarify, the 2033 mission is to orbit Mars only.

NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine shared his first public reaction to the bill on Twitter:

While there are challenges with the House Authorization Bill (limited commercial partnerships, limited Moon activities, etc.), consider the positives:
  • Strong, bipartisan support for Moon to Mars agenda
  • All major Artemis programs authorized
  • Includes Gateway to Mars
More to come.

Headshot
Member

Posts: 1221
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 01-27-2020 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Headshot   Click Here to Email Headshot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for pointing out that oversight about orbiting instead of landing.

I guess my mind rejected the premise. I can't believe our representatives would insist on sending US astronauts on a risky seven-month trip to Mars, have them stay in orbit around Mars from December 2033 until March of 2035 (when the next Mars to Earth window opens) and not land. Then they will have to spend another seven months getting back home. If you want to check out the equipment, send the vehicle(s) without a crew. No need to unnecessarily risk lives for minimal scientific return and questionable bragging rights.

Send US astronauts to Mars only when we are prepared to land.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 01-27-2020 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine statement
NASA Authorization Bill Update

I would like to thank the Committee for producing a comprehensive NASA authorization bill. I am particularly encouraged that the bill is proceeding on a bipartisan basis, reflecting a consensus on a Moon to Mars approach. Maintaining a bipartisan, consensus approach is critical to constancy of purpose and supporting a long-term national commitment to the human exploration of the Moon and Mars. The bill envisions a destination of Mars while supporting missions to the Moon as the most effective strategy to achieve that critical, shared goal. NASA would appreciate the opportunity to work with the Committee in a bipartisan way, as we did with the Senate Commerce Committee, on some modifications.

I am concerned that the bill imposes some significant constraints on our approach to lunar exploration. As you know, NASA has successfully fostered the development of a rapidly expanding commercial economy for access to space. We would like to continue building on this success as we develop the most efficient mission architectures and partnership approaches to accomplish our shared goals.

NASA seeks to expand the sphere of economic activity deeper into space by conducting space exploration and development with commercial and international partners. Without the dynamic participation of commercial partners, our chances of creating a sustainable exploration program are significantly diminished. In particular, we are concerned that the bill's approach to developing a human lander system as fully government-owned and directed would be ineffective. The approach established by the bill would inhibit our ability to develop a flexible architecture that takes advantage of the full array of national capabilities – government and private sector – to accomplish national goals. NASA would appreciate the opportunity to work with the Committee to develop language that would support a broader national and international effort that would maximize progress toward our shared exploration goals through the efficient application of our available resources.

NASA is fully committed to a lunar exploration program that supports and enables human missions to Mars. The Committee should be aware that the exploration of Mars is a very challenging goal both technically and from a resource perspective. If we are going to accomplish this goal, we will need the flexibility to rapidly develop technical expertise using the Moon and to fully engage commercial and international partners. We do think that the bill's concerns for limiting activities on the Moon could be counterproductive. If we are going to explore Mars in a safe and sustainable way, we will require a strong in situ resource utilization capability and significant technology development using the surface of the Moon. NASA would appreciate more flexibility in defining lunar surface activities that may contribute directly to Mars exploration.

NASA subject matter experts are now closely reviewing the available bill text to identify issues and concerns of a more technical, detailed nature, and we would appreciate an opportunity to share the results of this review with the Committee at the appropriate time.

We would welcome an opportunity to work with the Committee on a bill that would accommodate a broader partnership approach. I appreciate the Committee's bipartisan efforts and congratulate you on producing this bipartisan consensus in favor of a Moon to Mars exploration program.

denali414
Member

Posts: 846
From: Raleigh, NC
Registered: Aug 2017

posted 01-29-2020 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for denali414   Click Here to Email denali414     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From The Washington Post:
While NASA had been planning on building an outpost on and around the moon, the House bill would direct the agency to focus instead on developing the technologies to put astronauts in orbit around Mars by 2033. Instead of serving as a staging point for the moon, as NASA intends, the lunar space station, known as Gateway, would exist to test technologies in deep space needed for Mars under the House bill.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-04-2020 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In tonight's (Feb. 4) State of the Union, President Trump said:
In reaffirming our heritage as a free nation, we must remember that America has always been a frontier nation. Now we must embrace the next frontier, America's manifest destiny in the stars.

I am asking the Congress to fully fund the Artemis program to ensure that the next man and the first woman on the moon will be American astronauts — using this as a launching pad to ensure that America is the first nation to plant its flag on Mars.

denali414
Member

Posts: 846
From: Raleigh, NC
Registered: Aug 2017

posted 02-05-2020 07:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for denali414   Click Here to Email denali414     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This, in my opinion, is why NASA does not get back to Moon or other planets. The "political will" for a lack of a better term, just keeps the objectives and "finish line" moving.

Unlike Apollo, that had the nation behind the program, Artemis and Gateway keep getting changed. A new political reality occurs, so easy to cut the NASA budget and despite billions already spent, programs get canceled or delayed.

It is not because of technology or knowledge, but some politician has a "pet project" that needs money or new presidential staff doesn't want to continue program as "not theirs." Beyond frustrating at this point and why commercial space exploration makes more sense as takes the political arguments away, and just about profit and loss.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-07-2020 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The White House will propose a 12 percent boost to NASA's 2021 budget, with most of the increase aimed at fulfilling his goal of returning U.S. astronauts to the moon's surface by 2024, reports the Wall Street Journal.
The increase includes nearly $3 billion in new funding to develop human landers, [administration] officials said, with total agency outlays projected to climb to $25.6 billion in one of the largest overall spending increases requested for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration since the 1990s.

... NASA aims to solicit competing plans for lunar landers, according to a senior administration official, which require a big initial government investment. Previously, NASA targeted some $600 million for such programs, which now are proposed to receive some $3.3 billion.

... Roughly $400 million is envisioned to demonstrate, among other things, extraction of water and oxygen from lunar sources and ways to produce fuel for both spacecraft and boosters on that surface. Human exploration to Mars and elsewhere will require such capabilities.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-10-2020 11:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Office of Management and Budget (OMB) release
Leading the Exploration of the Moon and Mars

America is leading the world in a new era of space exploration that will send the first woman and the next man to the Moon in 2024 and build a sustainable presence on the lunar surface. Through learning to live and work on the Moon, the United States and our international and commercial partners will develop the experience, technology, and systems that we will need to eventually send humans to Mars. These efforts will continue America's standing as the world leader in space exploration and inspire the next generation of explorers, researchers, scientists, artists, and engineers around the world.

In support of this vision, the FY 2021 Budget is one of the strongest budgets in NASA's history.

Landing on the Moon by 2024, Sustainable Surface Missions, and Preparing for Mars

The Budget provides $25.2 billion for NASA in FY 2021, a 12 percent increase from the 2020 enacted level. Of this amount, $12.3 billion will support the systems, people, and facilities needed to land and operate on the Moon and prepare for a future human landing on Mars. The Budget provides sustained robust funding from FY 2021 to FY 2025 for exploration – through the date of the next lunar landing and beyond.

  • Human Lunar Landers. The Budget provides more than $3.3 billion in FY 2021 to support the development of human lunar lander systems that will take astronauts from orbit around the Moon down to the surface. The strategy for developing these landers relies on competition, industry innovation, and robust Government oversight with the goal of delivering safe, reliable landing systems that can enable affordable and sustainable exploration.

  • Transportation Systems. The Budget continues development of the Space Launch System rocket, Orion crew capsule, and their ground systems, which together will take astronauts from Earth to the orbit around the Moon, where they will rendezvous with lunar landers. With the $4 billion provided in the Budget, NASA will work to complete these systems and start to establish a regular flight cadence.

  • Surface Capabilities. Once astronauts set foot on the Moon, they will need a range of capabilities for a sustainable long-term presence and in preparation for Mars exploration. The Budget funds surface spacesuits ($175 million) and initial work on a surface habitat and rovers ($212 million). The Budget also provides $254 million for commercial landing services that will deliver science, technology, and exploration-focused instruments to the lunar surface.

  • Technology Development. The Budget funds more than $430 million for a Lunar Surface Innovation Initiative that will enable human and robotic exploration on the Moon and future operations on Mars. The Initiative includes support for technology development and demonstrations for utilizing the Moon's resources, generating the power needed for habitation and exploration, and navigating in extreme surface and subsurface environments. The Budget provides $20 million for research grants and competitions to initiate work on the most challenging parts of a human mission to Mars as well as $44 million for new technology development to address opportunities specific to Mars, such as the ability to use carbon dioxide in its atmosphere to generate oxygen for life support systems and rocket fuel.

  • Robotic Exploration of Mars. The Budget provides $529 million for the robotic exploration of Mars to pave the way for future human exploration, including a mission that will return samples of Martian soil and rocks to the Earth for the first time and a new mission to map the near-surface water ice that future explorers will use.
The budget cuts some NASA programs to support funding the Artemis program:
Redirects Funds from Lower Priority Science and Education Programs to Higher Priorities. Consistent with prior budgets, the Budget provides no funding for the Wide Field Infrared Survey Telescope, two earth science missions, and the Office of Science, Technology, engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) engagement. The Budget continues to support education activities such as internships and fellowships funded outside of the Office of STEM engagement. The Budget also proposes to terminate the SOFIA telescope, which has not proven to be as scientifically productive as other missions.
Additional FY2021 NASA budget documents can be found on the agency's website.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 50516
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-10-2020 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA video
What have we accomplished and what's ahead in our mission to explore the Moon, Mars and worlds beyond? Tune in at 1 p.m. EST, Mon, Feb. 10 for a "State of NASA" update from NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine on the Artemis program and more. He'll speak live from Stennis Space Center in Mississippi.


This topic is 3 pages long:   1  2  3 

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Copyright 2023 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a





advertisement