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  Michael Collins: Flying again after Apollo 8

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Author Topic:   Michael Collins: Flying again after Apollo 8
Delta7
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posted 12-13-2018 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm curious if Mike Collins ever indicated that, had he flown as command module pilot on Apollo 8, he would have flown a third mission?

Presumably he would have followed the same path that Jim Lovell did after Lovell replaced Collins on Frank Borman's crew. Namely backup commander on Apollo 11 then commander of Apollo 13.

Blackarrow
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posted 12-13-2018 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An equally valid question is whether Jim Lovell (had he backed up Michael Collins on Apollo 8 and flown on Apollo 11) would have wanted to carry on by backing up Alan Shepard on Apollo 14 and going on to command Apollo 17.

I'm sure Lovell has commented on this at some point, but I suspect that, following a discussion with his wife, he might have concluded (like Collins) that you couldn't top Apollo 11, and that it was a fitting finale to his three-mission career. (Which would, of course, have been good news for next-in-line Gene Cernan, allowing events to follow the path with which we are already familiar.)

Delta7
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posted 12-13-2018 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And if Collins decided to retire after Apollo 8, who would have filled that backup Apollo 11 commander/Apollo 13 commander slot? Slayton would have been running out of astronauts with flight experience.

Would Borman have reconsidered and stayed on for one more flight, especially if Deke said "Please!"

Fra Mauro
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posted 12-14-2018 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting thread. I don't see any reason to think that Collins or Lovell would've tried for another flight. Their reasons for retiring from flight status still would have been valid (the grind, others deserved a chance).

Collins in particular, never seemed to have seen walking on the Moon as his particular goal. As for Apollo 13 commander, how about Bill Anders?

Delta7
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posted 12-14-2018 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only problem with Anders as commander is that Deke had a rule that the command module pilot on the first few flights with the lunar module needed to be a spaceflight veteran. Without Borman or Collins available, there would not have been enough veterans to fill the commander and command module pilot slots.

Fra Mauro
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posted 12-14-2018 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If there weren't enough vets, maybe Deke would have had to reconsider Cooper, or the rule.

Delta7
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posted 12-14-2018 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Assuming Fred Haise, first in line for Group 5, would have been named backup lunar module pilot of Apollo 10 in that scenario (Cooper, Eisele, Haise)... Anders, Mattingly, Mitchell as the Apollo 11 backup crew/Apollo 13 prime crew?

Still I wonder if Slayton would have put Anders, who had no test pilot experience, in the position of potentially making (attempting) the first lunar landing as Armstrong's backup, if Armstrong had to be replaced.

My own opinion is that Collins would have accepted a third flight assignment after Apollo 8. He would have been looking at less than another one and a half year commitment instead of a 3+ year one had he accepted Dekes offer of Apollo 14 backup commander/Apollo 17 commander after Apollo 11. And I get the impression that the enormity of having flown on Apollo 11 made him think he had reached the pinnacle of his Astronaut career, which would not have been the case if he had flown Apollo 8 instead.

That's why I'm curious as to whether he ever said anything about the "what if" scenario.

Rusty53
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posted 12-14-2018 08:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rusty53     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
McDivitt's name has not been mentioned yet.

Delta7
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posted 12-15-2018 10:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But would McDivitt have had enough time to train for Apollo 11 after Apollo 9? By then Apollo 11 was already almost 3 months into training.

Rusty53
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posted 12-15-2018 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rusty53     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's a good question. He would have been very familiar with the LM systems from Apollo 9 at least.

Delta7
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posted 12-15-2018 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My take: Collins, Anders, Mitchell named as Apollo 11 backup crew. Collins, Mattingly, Mitchell fly Apollo 13. Years later Tom Hanks plays Michael Collins in the movie Apollo 13.

Jim Lovell orbits the moon on Apollo 11 while Armstrong and Aldrin make the first lunar landing. Lovell returns to the moon as commander of Apollo 17, exploring the Taurus Littrow Valley with Harrison Schmitt.

ashot
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posted 12-18-2018 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ashot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, there is another interesting situation for discussion:

Let's suppose that CC Williams did not have the tragic accident and flew on Apollo 12. What would have happened to Bean then (as he was in AAP and was not supposed to fly Apollo by then)?

So what could be his options? To fly as CMP with Conrad on Skylab 2? To command Skylab 3 or 4 on his first flight to space. Or Slayton, realizing that he still does have someone from Group 3 still unflown takes him to Apollo and gives him a CMP or LMP seat on Apollo 13 or 14?

Skylon
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posted 12-18-2018 07:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jim Lovell I feel would try for a landing mission even if he had flown Apollo 11 as command module pilot. He seemed to be especially driven to walk on the moon — regardless of when it may happen.

I agree that Mike Collins' main driver for not choosing to back up Apollo 14 was the time commitment, so backing up 11 and flying 14 (then 13) would have been more appealing. However, even if he didn't want to fly, I feel the significance of Apollo 11 could have seen him, or even Frank Borman (who didn't formally retire until 1970) — convinced to backup the mission.

I don't see McDivitt as a backup option for Apollo 11 given Apollo 9. Also Slayton seemed to strongly feel McDivitt didn't need to do a turn as a backup again. So, if Collins leaves in this scenario then McDivitt could have gone straight to a prime crew, and if not him... well that leaves Gordo Cooper I guess.

Delta7
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posted 12-19-2018 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
What would have happened to Bean then (as he was in AAP and was not supposed to fly Apollo by then)?
I don't see Slayton bypassing Bean when it came time to replace Lovell on Neil Armstrong's Apollo 8 backup crew. He was the only Group 3 member not yet assigned to a flight. And by then the Apollo Applications Program was being whittled down from it's original plan of lunar orbital missions interspersed with earth orbital workshop missions. Would Slayton really have made Bean wait a few years to fly on Skylab while Group 5 guys made the lunar flights? My opinion is no.

That opens up a whole new area of speculation as to who would fly Apollo 11. With Armstrong, Aldrin and Bean as the Apollo 8 backup crew, are they subsequently named as the Apollo 11 prime crew, with Armstrong and Bean making the first landing? Where does Collins fit in? Keep in mind Slayton gave Armstrong a say in who was named to his crew. Does Slayton give him a similar choice between Aldrin, Bean and Collins? If so, who does he pick and what does the odd man out wind up doing? Or does Deke simply rotate Armstrong, Aldrin and Bean to Apollo 11 and fit Collins in later, like Apollo 13? Maybe Collins, Aldrin or Bean, having been left out of the Apollo 11 selection, is paired with Al Shepard as his lunar module pilot. Lots of possible scenarios.

Blackarrow
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posted 12-19-2018 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think Al Shepard would have flown as anybody's lunar module pilot (the most junior member of a three-man crew).

trajan
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posted 12-19-2018 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for trajan   Click Here to Email trajan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I read that as Delta saying that Aldrin, Collins or Bean would have been lunar module pilot to Shepard as commander.

Delta7
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posted 12-19-2018 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Armstrong, Aldrin, Bean on Apollo 11. Shepard, Roosa, Collins on Apollo 14.

Skylon
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posted 12-20-2018 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If C.C. Williams flew on 12 I envision all the Group 6 guys just being bumped off one when it comes to flying as lunar module pilot. Mike Collins' surgery would still necessitate him being replaced by Jim Lovell, leading to Aldrin being "promoted" to backup command module pilot. Would Slayton have really passed over Alan Bean in favor of Fred Haise to be Apollo 8's new backup lunar module pilot? I doubt it.

Basically the lunar module pilots would be:

  • 12 - Williams
  • 13 - Bean
  • 14 - Haise
  • 15 - Mitchell
  • 16 - Irwin
  • 17 - Schmitt
Unless there were any major personality conflicts that Slayton felt would preclude a commander and lunar module pilot from flying together.

Charlie Duke maybe flies as a command module pilot on Apollo 16 or 17 - and one more 1966 astronaut likely finds themselves waiting to earn their wings on a shuttle flight.

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