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Author
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Topic: Was Jim McDivitt ever offered Apollo 17?
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mrspacehead
Member Posts: 43
From:
Registered: Jun 2017
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posted 07-04-2017 05:15 PM
  
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Jim McDivitt was offered commander on Apollo 17. Has anyone ever anything about this?I have no idea where I read this, and I read it so many years ago that I could easily have mixed it up with something else. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 07-04-2017 05:56 PM
I've heard stories of McDivitt being offered Apollo 13, but not 17. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-05-2017 01:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mrspacehead:
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Jim McDivitt was offered commander on Apollo 17.
Extremely unlikely. McDivitt became manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office in October 1969 — I'm not sure he was even considered an active astronaut by summer 1971, when the Apollo 17 crew was formed. (Now, he did have strong opinions about that crew.)As noted elsewhere, there was some brief discussion between Slayton, Shepard and McDivitt about Apollo 13 in March 1969, but nothing came of it. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 552
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-05-2017 01:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
...there was some brief discussion between Slayton, Shepard and McDivitt about Apollo 13
Isn't the story here that Slayton mentioned to McDivitt the possibility of flying as LMP on Apollo 13 with Shepard and McDivitt balked at the idea? |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-05-2017 01:49 PM
I spoke with both McDivitt and Slayton about it, though unfortunately, only briefly. The best summary is McDivitt's, in largely these words: "There was some discussion of me flying 13 with Shepard but he would have wanted to command." I think, in fact, it was one conversation as Deke pondered McDivitt's next career move after Apollo 9 and possible downstream assignments, with McDivitt saying that he was interested in commanding the first or maybe second lunar landing, but less enthusiastic about three and beyond. Another option was appointing him chief of the astronaut office, replacing Shepard. McDivitt, as I recall, disliked the A13 and chief astro options so thoroughly, given the circumstances (he was one of several veteran astros who didn't think Shepard should get command of A13), that he went in search of a job away from Slayton. |
billshap
Member Posts: 16
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 07-05-2017 11:12 PM
Michael, if Shepard would have been eliminated from consideration, whom would McDivitt have wanted to command 13? And, what would have been his preference for the 17 crew?Thanks for your expertise and insight. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 274
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 07-06-2017 08:50 AM
The OP's "vague recollection" could be McDivitt's strong opposition to Gene Cernan commanding Apollo 17. |
mrspacehead
Member Posts: 43
From:
Registered: Jun 2017
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posted 07-06-2017 10:59 AM
That might be it. Thanks for all the replies. I didn't think that McDivitt was ever offered Apollo 17, but I couldn't be sure and I figured collectSPACE was the place to ask. There are so many knowledgeable people on this forum! |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-06-2017 01:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by billshap:
...whom would McDivitt have wanted to command 13?
I suspect that McDivitt supported the choice of Jim Lovell, as it turned out. Likely he would have accepted Stafford or John Young, too. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-06-2017 06:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by RichieB16:
Isn't the story here that Slayton mentioned to McDivitt the possibility of flying as LMP on Apollo 13 with Shepard and McDivitt balked at the idea?
Having heard Jim McDivitt speak on this subject, both in public and in private, I think it would be fair to say that "balked at the idea" is an extremely polite way of putting it. |
billshap
Member Posts: 16
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 07-06-2017 09:55 PM
Who was McDivitt's preference for Apollo 17? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 07-07-2017 06:02 AM
Dick Gordon. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-07-2017 07:48 AM
My preference would have been for Dick Gordon to have commanded Apollo 18 as a highly successful mission, but as we know only too well this didn't happen. Gene Cernan was the commander of the last lunar landing mission and he made a damned fine job of it. Jim McDivitt would, I'm certain, enthusiastically agree. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1047
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 07-07-2017 05:43 PM
Apollo 17 was offered to Michael Collins. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 274
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 07-07-2017 06:03 PM
Collins was offered the role of backup CDR on Apollo 14 — and it was quite possibly a vague offer. Collins recounts Slayton offering to assign him to a future Apollo crew as backup CDR. I'm not sure Slayton told him outright what flight, though Collins assumed 14 and Slayton confirmed it. Based on both men's accounts and the setting (a T-38 flight) I see it as something Slayton brought up to get a sense of how Collins felt about flying after Apollo 11. While Collins knew this would put him "in line" for Apollo 17, this in no way was a formal offer of flying Apollo 17. |
David C
Member Posts: 1015
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 07-07-2017 06:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
My preference would have been for Dick Gordon...
I think mine would have been too but, I think I'd have been wrong. I don't think Dick would have done a better job than Gene on the moon. Throughout the post flight years I really don't think Dick would have done nearly as good a job as Gene. Gene's character leant itself naturally to being an exceptional "ambassador" for the program. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1047
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 07-07-2017 07:14 PM
After Apollo 12, Conrad and Bean moved to Skylab. Conrad was CDR on Skylab 2, Bean was CDR on Skylab 3. If Gordon wanted (and followed the friends), he can have the seat of CDR on Skylab 4? |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-07-2017 08:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by David C:
I think mine would have been too but, I think I'd have been wrong.
I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't taking sides in the debate (which certainly took place) about whether the command of Apollo 17 should have been given to Gene Cernan or Dick Gordon. I'm saying it's a great shame that they weren't both given missions, with Cernan commanding Apollo 17 and Gordon commanding an extra mission, Apollo 18. While that would have been highly desirable, it is entirely hypothetical because there was no Apollo 18. As to whether Gordon would have done a better job than Cernan as commander of Apollo 17, I offer no opinion because Cernan was selected and we will never know. If Gordon had been selected, I'm sure he would have done a fantastic job. However, in the real world we can only ask whether Cernan actually did do a great job. Answer: yes, definitely! |
billshap
Member Posts: 16
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 07-08-2017 11:53 PM
Still trying to figure any way Cernan doesn't get backup 14/prime 17. There weren't many qualified candidates. We know the Cooper story after backing up 10 — he's out. McDivitt had moved into management and Stafford was out of the flow. Borman was on his way out. Collins and Anders had taken themselves out of the running. Cernan was the only other candidate from the first three groups. Did Deke consider any other option(s)? |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-09-2017 12:46 PM
If he did, he didn't record it in his book, "Deke." The only obvious alternative would have been Dick Gordon, but my understanding of Slayton's technique was that if you had priority (in the sense that you had flown earlier) and if you hadn't screwed up and were clearly keen and hard-working, you would go before someone who was arguably better qualified but had flown later. In theory, as a CM pilot, Dick Gordon was better qualified than former LM pilot Cernan, but Cernan had flown before Gordon; had flown a good mission; and was keen and hard working. Probably no real contest in Slayton's mind. |
billshap
Member Posts: 16
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 07-10-2017 01:35 AM
Gordon's path was probably set when the backup 14/prime 17 assignments were made. He was CMP on 12, targeted to backup 15 and rotate to prime on 18...which hadn't been canceled yet. So we're still looking for another legitimate candidate besides Cernan. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 07-10-2017 08:56 AM
It's ironic that McDivitt had such a strong opinion on who should command 17. If you think about it, it was his decision to keep his crew with the lunar module flight that ultimately eliminated Gordon from contention. If McDivitt's crew would have deferred the LM flight and flew Apollo 8 (which Slayton wrote was his choice) then the backup crew (Conrad, Gordon, Bean) would have been set up for 11. It was the shift forward to Apollo 9 that put Collins in position to be available for a backup role and eventual command of 17, which he declined. As I recall, that conversation in the T-38 took place prior to the Apollo 11 mission, with Gordon still tied up preparing for Apollo 12. If Gordon had flown on 11, there isn't much doubt that he would have accepted Slayton's offer. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 274
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 07-10-2017 08:59 AM
The only possible way I could imagine Cernan not flying on Apollo 17 as CDR would be if Slayton had caved to the opinions in the Astronaut Office and assigned Shepard as backup on Apollo 13 (lord knows how Shepard would have reacted to that) — and McDivitt or Stafford had accepted flying as commander. Which I guess would land a prime/backup rotation like this: - AS 13 - McDivitt (?), Roosa, Mitchell - Shepard, Swigert, Duke
- AS 14 - Lovell, Mattingly, Haise - Young, Evans, Cernan(?)
- AS 15 - Scott, Worden, Irwin - Gordon, Brand, Schmitt
I think what makes this rough to estimate is who McDivitt would have flown with — he seems like someone who had strong personal opinions of his colleagues. Slayton stated he would have wanted his Apollo 9 crew, and while I am sure McDivitt would have been fine with Stu Roosa in place of Dave Scott (who had worked 9's support crew), not flying with Rusty Schweickart as LMP could have been a deal-breaker. |
plomaris1
New Member Posts: 4
From:
Registered: Feb 2016
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posted 07-10-2017 09:34 AM
Even after Gene Cernan crashed a helicopter, which was his fault, Deke still defended him and even offered the "engine quit" excuse, which Gene did not accept. So, Deke and others wanted Gene on Apollo 17, but McDivitt and others did not.Call it favoritism or whatever, but it is only human to prefer one person over another. In this case, it was not a choice of Cernan vs. McDivitt, but Cernan vs. Gordon. Deke stuck to his original choices for the Apollo 17 crew, including Joe Engle. Of course, we know he got overruled on that one. Should he have been overruled on Cernan as well, given the apparent showboating he was demonstrating prior to the helicopter crash? I don't know, but I'm sure Cernan wasn't the only one who did some showing off in an aircraft. |
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