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  Big Bird (Caroll Spinney) on Challenger/51L (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Big Bird (Caroll Spinney) on Challenger/51L
Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-25-2015 10:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The new documentary "I Am Big Bird" tells the story of Caroll Spinney, the man who has been Sesame Street's Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch since 1969. The press kit for the film notes it features never-before-seen home videos, including:
Caroll's selection, then subsequent rejection, by NASA to join the Challenger crew in 1986. Instead of boarding the shuttle, he watched from the studio as the astronauts, including his replacement, Christa McAuliffe, perished in the disaster.
The Guardian on Friday (April 24) published an essay by Spinney where he shares the story about his connection to the STS-51L crew as well:
I once got a letter from NASA, asking if I would be willing to join a mission to orbit the Earth as Big Bird, to encourage kids to get interested in space. There wasn't enough room for the puppet in the end, and I was replaced by a teacher. In 1986, we took a break from filming to watch takeoff, and we all saw the ship blow apart. The six astronauts and teacher all died, and we just stood there crying.
Spinney also described the events in a 2014 interview with What's Up Hollywood.
I got a letter from the five astronauts who were on the ship when it blew up. I didn't realize the danger, and I thought that naturally there would be some risk, because look at what they are doing. They have to get up to 70,000 miles an hour.

I thought, "Well, how many people get that opportunity?" So I said yes, but I guess it's a fortunate thing they found out there's no room to put Big Bird on the plane and that's what kept me from going. I never met the teacher who went in my place. We saw tape on the day it blew up, and we saw it go flying apart, and your scalp crawled across your head, like, "Oh my God! What have we just seen?" And I was supposed to be there, and those poor people aboard that ship.

It was an incredible emotional experience. Just not being on it, I'm able to talk about it. So I think it's sad but true.

bwhite1976
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posted 04-25-2015 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bwhite1976   Click Here to Email bwhite1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wouldn't it be pretty obvious from the start that logistically speaking it would be pretty tough to have the fully suited Big Bird on the Space Shuttle? A touching story, but I wonder how serious NASA was about this.

I guess a pre-Challenger mindset may be necessary but why not take a smaller character? Say Elmo, or some other puppet type character.

dom
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posted 04-26-2015 09:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dom   Click Here to Email dom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seriously, is this a joke or just a chance comment he has with some NASA person that's now become conflated in his memory? Was NASA really considering flying a Sesame Street character (with actor inside) aboard the Space Shuttle!

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-26-2015 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm in the process of researching this further.

That said, I don't think the idea of flying Big Bird to be that outlandish (other than the logistics of doing so) that it would be beyond consideration. By the mid-1980s, the character was immensely popular with children and Sesame Street was in many cases the first educational programming that kids were exposed to by their parents.

But at the same time, knowing the process NASA went through to select a teacher, I don't think the agency would have just picked Big Bird to fly. Assuming Spinney did not imagine the whole thing, I believe there has to be more — or less — to this story.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 04-26-2015 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If he had been under consideration for a shuttle flight, or even thinking about it like John Denver, wouldn't have this come out before?

cfreeze79
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posted 04-26-2015 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfreeze79   Click Here to Email cfreeze79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To me, it has all the makings of a "Hey, wouldn't be cool if..." idea brainstormed by NASA folks one Friday evening at The Outpost. That said, it was the early-to-mid-80s, and we could seemingly to nearly anything in regards to low Earth orbit. But Big Bird...

In my research of John Denver's efforts to go up, my FOIA requests have yielded little, aside from him getting a NASA flight physical at some point. And he was a guy with clout and pedigree (his father was a USAF test pilot of some note).

I have to remain a skeptic on this until I see some further proof.

Seriously. Big Bird?! Imagine The Count working the pad in Florida, "One-two-three Ha-ha-haa!" Or "Oscar the Grouch" as Capcom. Yeesh... I could go on!

Cozmosis22
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posted 04-26-2015 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cozmosis22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can't comprehend why anyone would believe this story?

Let's see the "letter from the five [?] astronauts who were on the ship when it blew up."

OV-105
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posted 04-26-2015 08:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OV-105   Click Here to Email OV-105     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I could see someone contacting him to fly something of Big Bird and that's about it I bet.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 04-27-2015 01:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd definitely like to see that letter from the five astronauts - since there are ten candidates as to who that could be. One rendition of the shuttle launch schedule had Bolden and Gibson, et. al., flying 51L with the Teacher-in-Space (while Scobee and Smith flew 61C.) I'd start by asking Bolden and his 61C crew if they knew anything about this.

hoorenz
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posted 04-27-2015 05:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hoorenz   Click Here to Email hoorenz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe this is worth a topic of its own, but I always wondered if the Gibson crew for 51L was not simply a mistake (in the March 25, 1985 NASA Hq. Customer Service Division's Space Shuttle Payload Flight Assignments schedule). The Manifest in the April 12, 1985 NASA JSC Space News Roundup is again (or still...) listing Scobee's crew for 51L.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 04-27-2015 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Last word from me before this topic gets derailed: Maybe, maybe not. I've seen Garneau listed as the PS for a Brandenstein-Creighton crew...

FFrench
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posted 05-01-2015 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For another, earlier story of how Sesame Street wanted something in space named "Big Bird," have a look at Al Worden's "Falling To Earth," P.151. Didn't go very well!

JasonB
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posted 05-01-2015 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Considering two politicians made their way onto the flights prior to Challenger, I would assume that Big Bird would have been viewed as a major upgrade.

OV-105
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posted 05-02-2015 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for OV-105   Click Here to Email OV-105     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We all know they are just following in Snoopy's paw prints.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-05-2015 04:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA officials has confirmed that the space agency did indeed discuss flying Caroll Spinney on the space shuttle, NBC News reports.
In response to inquiries, NASA released a statement on Monday referring to its talks with the "Sesame Street" team:

"In 1984, NASA created the Space Flight Participant Program to select teachers, journalists, artists, and other people who could bring their unique perspective to the human spaceflight experience as a passenger on the space shuttle. A review of past documentation shows there were initial conversations with Sesame Street regarding their potential participation on a Challenger flight, but that plan was never approved."

NASA said the talks involved the Big Bird character as well as his teddy bear, Radar.

garymilgrom
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posted 05-05-2015 07:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for that clarification Robert. I heard the story on the radio and had the same questions (and misgivings) as discussed here.

Cozmosis22
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posted 05-05-2015 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cozmosis22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, for one thing, NASA did not "create" the Space Flight Participant Program, the US Congress and the President did.

Cannot find the "statement on Monday" released by NASA on any of it's websites and it is not linked in the NBC article.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-05-2015 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The statement was provided directly to media, not posted to NASA's website (which is not uncommon).

On edit: I now have a copy of the statement and it reads exactly as NBC printed it. The only additional text follows:

NASA has enjoyed a long collaborative relationship with Sesame Street as a way to engage students in technology, mathematics, and science-related education activities. The Space Flight Participant Program was canceled after the tragic loss of the space shuttle and its crew in 1986.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 05-06-2015 09:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd be interesting in knowing what those initial discussions were, knowing the selection process for both the Teacher and Journalist programs. Was it along the lines of, "Hey, looks like we're going to have room on 51L, would you like to fly as a PS and bring Big Bird along if CTW says it's OK?"

cfreeze79
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posted 05-06-2015 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfreeze79   Click Here to Email cfreeze79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is interesting to see that the story has morphed, "selected, then rejected"? No, and to call it an invitation is probably overstating.

All that happened was NASA chose to open discussions on the possibility of him going up.

I am glad that the tale wasn't fabricated from whole cloth, but it appears to have suffered from embellishment over the decades, and this documentary will likely enshrine his assertions as facts. Le sigh...

Cozmosis22
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posted 05-06-2015 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cozmosis22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There has still been no documentation. None. An unattributed statement "from NASA" with vague wording about some perceived event 30 odd years ago really proves nothing.

p51
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posted 05-06-2015 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Am I one of a very small group of people who remember all the ideas bounced around in the media back then on taking up news people or people in popular culture? Not much came of that, but I clearly remember as a teen hearing about how lots of "non-professional-astronaut" types could be going up on STS missions when it was still considered, "routine" to the public (before, of course, everyone found out how dangerous it really was).

I have zero problem accepting that someone at NASA once talked about sending a manned muppet into space for its PR value.

But all I keep thinking about is how Mike Mullane's book, "Riding Rockets" would have read had Big Bird been on a mission with him!

OV-105
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posted 05-06-2015 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OV-105   Click Here to Email OV-105     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yellow feathers kept floating everywhere and were clogging up the air system on the mid deck.

Cozmosis22
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posted 05-07-2015 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cozmosis22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
Am I one of a very small group of people who remember all the ideas bounced around in the media back then on taking up news people or people in popular culture?

Remember that well; but that random speculation by various talking heads in the press did not become policy.

However, in this case there was a specific claim from the documentary "Caroll's 'selection' then subsequent rejection by NASA to join the Challenger crew in 1986."

Surely it is quite normal to make things up in the puppet world, but in the real world it could be called obfuscation of the truth.

Jonnyed
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posted 05-07-2015 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jonnyed   Click Here to Email Jonnyed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I checked Spinney's entry in Wikipedia and saw the following:
During the 1980s there was discussion about sending Big Bird into space to teach children about the U.S. space program. However, they were unable to figure out how to operate Big Bird in zero gravity, so the decision was made to send a teacher instead, which resulted in Christa McAuliffe being selected for the ill-fated last flight of Challenger, instead of Spinney.
The reference is listed as: Bobbi-Jean MacKinnon, Hance Colburne (Nov 14, 2014). "Caroll Spinney celebrates 45 years as Sesame Street's Big Bird". CBC News. Retrieved Feb 20, 2015.

So the issue was how to "operate" the muppet in zero gravity? Come on.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-08-2015 12:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Caroll Spinney took part in a Reddit AMA on Thursday (May 7) where he was asked about Big Bird flying on Challenger.
There was just a news story saying how you were basically next in line for the Challenger mission. How close did you actually come to going?

Well, it wasn't that I was in line. I had gotten a request from the Astronauts who were going up for the next journey for one of the shuttles. And they wanted Big Bird to go up there, so children from America would be more interested in the NASA space program - because they couldn't compete with Star Wars very well.

That's what they told me in their letter.

So I said "yes!"

Unfortunately, there was no room in the space shuttle for Big Bird to go.

And a teacher went instead.

cfreeze79
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posted 05-08-2015 02:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfreeze79   Click Here to Email cfreeze79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, I'll say/repeat it. I have serious difficultly believing this as Spinney presents them. I don't believe he is intentionally altering things either...

I think he has merely simplified the story to a quick talking point, understandable to a child's level. Note he gives no more detail than his previous assertions. No new information. The same pre-packaged lines of dialogue of "they asked me - I agreed - but Big Bird was too big - so a teacher took my place."

I am on the opinion that he has a connection to a historic and tragic event, and it using that connection to elevate his current project. "Never let a few facts get in the way of a good story..." And I still want to see this letter he keeps referring to! He still has it, right?! (Because I'd wager he can't produce it on questioning...)

I want to be wrong. I am of the Sesame Street generation, loved Big Bird, Oscar, and the gang (However, I do predate Elmo) and would have been in the first row watching the launch.

But the whole thing just reeks of something amiss. And I don't think for a moment we are getting the full, or correct, account of what actually happened.

p51
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posted 05-08-2015 01:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The bottom line is we're dealing with:
  1. Someone who has no clue of the inner workings of NASA and the astronaut office.

  2. A time that was almost 30 years ago.

  3. The strong possibility that Spinney might have had all these things communicated third hand. Is it too tough to imagine these, "discussions" taking place between someone at the Children's Television Workshop (who produced the series) and someone who may or may not have been talking for NASA?
So, I think there's a strong chance this was nothing more than a discussion of, "wouldn't it be cool if?" discussion from someone at production of the series and someone who may or may not have been officially talking for NASA. If so, by the time it go to Spinney (again, see # 1), God knows what the story morphed into and Spinney today is recalling the best recollection over 30 years through someone who might not have been there and obviously isn't familiar with the workings of Houston.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-08-2015 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All we know for sure is that Spinney has a recollection of being approached to fly on the space shuttle at a time when NASA was considering flying non-professional astronauts and that the space agency still has record of discussions (of some type) with Sesame Street circa 1984.

We can try to dismiss or rationalize what happened all day long, but it doesn't get us any closer to the facts. Unless more can be learned through either Spinney's or NASA's archives, there's not much more that can be said.

cfreeze79
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posted 05-08-2015 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfreeze79   Click Here to Email cfreeze79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, my issue, and why I am continuing to harp, is this: <soapbox mode on>

For too long, people consider eyewitness testimony — "I was there, so I know" — as the "gold standard" of evidence. And it is case, Spinney's words are being taken at fact...

A famous test pilot once quipped, "History is how I remember it." And in many regards, he is right — his words, right or wrong, have been reprinted and are considered to be history, despite numerous documents to the contrary.

The trail often leads to, "But he was there... If he's wrong, then why would have make that up?" when it is not an accusation of intentional fabrication, it is just the way the human mind works.

And as historians, documentarians, and just people living in the Information age, it is the job of everyone to act and think critically when presented with a story — especially when it flies in the face of established precepts.

<soapbox mode off>

I don't think we are going to see any more than the carefully-crafted statements by Spinney and NASA, which I view to be sad.

Is anyone up to submitting a FOIA request to see what documents NASA actually has? It would be interesting to see the actual message traffic regarding Spinney, and could possibly yet other journalistic nuggets on the Space Flight Participant Program...

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-08-2015 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't disagree with you.

I am following this up, and I don't believe a FOIA will be necessary. I hope to talk to Spinney directly, and I've already been in touch with the former NASA official who headed the Space Flight Participant Program. I'm also in touch with the appropriate people at NASA Headquarters.

I'll share what I learn as I learn it.

Henry Heatherbank
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posted 05-08-2015 08:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henry Heatherbank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Isn't the issue this? To anybody but avid followers of the Shuttle program (like those on this website), STS 51-L is the only mission they remember that included a "non-astronaut," despite the fact there were many.

I think there is no doubt there was a discussion at some level — a "hey, what if?" moment — between NASA and Sesame Street along the lines of flying a Sesame Street character or Big Bird on "a" shuttle mission, which had been colloquially remembered as ending up as "the" slot taken by Christa McAuliffe on STS 51-L, once again, on the lay-assumption that it was the only such shuttle mission to include a non-astronaut.

In other words, Spinney is just super-summarising, and more is being read into it than should be...

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-08-2015 09:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A reasonable approach, but without more information, we cannot dismiss the possibility that Spinney may have been approached to specifically fly on STS-51L.

Henry Heatherbank
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posted 05-08-2015 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henry Heatherbank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Given the shuffling of the PS slots throughout 1985, I find it hard to see how anybody — Spinney included  — could ever say they were approached to fly on a specific mission. Except in some rare cases (i.e. Spacelab missions or astronomers on the EOM missions) they were pretty much just slots. And the non-astronaut Payload Specialists were just slotted in and then often juggled; Patrick Baudry and Greg Jarvis in point.

So although you are right in saying I don't know that Spinney wasn't approached for 51-L, if there is any credibility to the account, I would be more inclined to believe that he/Sesame Street were approached about a slot, and that slot is being remembered as only 51-L, when it could have been (and likely would have ended up being) another mission altogether.

DeepSea
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posted 06-27-2015 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeepSea     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
A reasonable approach, but without more information, we cannot dismiss the possibility that Spinney may have been approached to specifically fly on STS-51L.

I know we're not in the business of making assumptions out of nothing, but take what Robert says one step further.

We all know what the deal was with participants flying pre-Challenger, and as others have pointed out, the idea of them flying Big Bird is not remotely a stretch at all. In an ideal world, if you were going to fly an educational television staple at all.. would it not make sense to fly it alongside a teacher? A double-act, as it were?

Jonnyed
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posted 06-29-2015 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jonnyed   Click Here to Email Jonnyed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your post confuses me: The assertion that Spinney makes is that he was approached to fly on the Challenger mission as Big Bird but was later deemed not practical for several possible reasons advanced earlier in this thread. Thus the teacher was slotted for the flight in Big Bird's place.

At no time did it appear that anyone at NASA was envisioning BOTH Big Bird AND a teacher flying at the same time on Challenger — so I don't understand your post.

DeepSea
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posted 06-30-2015 04:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeepSea     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jonnyed:
Thus the teacher was slotted for the flight in Big Bird's place.
Yes, and I believe we have all agreed that particular claim is a flawed memory at worst or a paraphrased soundbite at best.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonnyed:
At no time did it appear that anyone at NASA was envisioning BOTH Big Bird AND a teacher flying at the same time on Challenger.
Separate of the original claim, thinking in the context of the Teacher in Space program, if NASA had come up with the idea of flying the character during a blue-sky development session, would it not have made sense to have flown it with a teacher on one the flights down the line?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 06-30-2015 05:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DeepSea:
...would it not have made sense to have flown it with a teacher on one the flights down the line?
Based who I have talked to so far, I can tell you for certain that didn't happen. If Spinney was approached, it was prior to the Teacher-in-Space program existing.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 06-30-2015 05:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An interesting topic, for sure, but to assign Caroll Spinney ("Big Bird") to train and possibly fly with a specific shuttle flight crew in 1985/86 seems highly unlikely.

Bottom line, simply put, is that I would love to see his letter from the "five astronauts who were on the ship when it blew up."

It's interesting to note, though as Robert pointed out from a NBC report, that there had been initial conversations between the space agency and the Sesame Street team.

That would be fine, of course, but it just seems odd to me that Spinney would have gotten any sort of supporting, rather official or not, letter documentation from
members of the astronaut corps.

cfreeze79
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posted 06-30-2015 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfreeze79   Click Here to Email cfreeze79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I, too, would like to see "the letter." And I'd wager it will never see the light of day.

I mean, is there an established practice of astronauts doing joint letters for such things? Anything?! If so, does anyone have an example in their collection?


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