posted 07-27-2013 09:56 AM               

Cooper declined as he was returning to Florida but the book claims that if he'd said 'yes' he'd have been in the car alongside the President when he was shot!

posted 07-27-2013 10:02 AM               

Before leaving Brooks, he invited Astronaut Gordon Cooper to accompany him to Dallas, saying he could use having a "space hero" along on that leg of the trip. Cooper declined, explaining that he had to be at Cape Canaveral the following day for some important tests. Had he gone, he would have ridden in the president's limousine, sitting in the backseat between Jack and Jackie.

I spoke with him the night before he was killed. We were together at a function at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio and the president came over and asked me if I could go to Dallas with him the next day. He said he could use a "space hero" with him on the trip. I couldn't make the trip because some important systems tests were scheduled at the Cape for the next day: November 22, 1963. Had I gone, I suppose I would have been riding in the presidential motorcade that day.

posted 07-28-2013 08:43 AM            

Were Cooper there, they'd have probably put him elsewhere in the motorcade.

posted 07-28-2013 11:26 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Skylon:
Clarke definitely embellished where Cooper would have been sitting once you think about it practically...

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Tommy Eure's classic photo of JFK's limo on November 18 1963 passing his Tampa photographic studio clearly shows that the backseat could accommodate three men. The Hess & Eisenhardt modified 1961 Lincoln Continental Presidential Limousine SS100X Reg GG300 could have held Gordo, Jackie, and JFK on the backseat and the Connallys in the jump-seats ahead.

In November 1963, JFK had started his run for office in 1964 and needed all the help he could get. What better way to do that than to be seen in a motorcade with Gordo a little over 6 months after his May 1963 Faith 7 flight had successfully completed Project Mercury.

During the motorcade through Dallas that fateful day, Jackie's assigned US Secret Service (USSS) Special Agent (SA) Clint Hill was on/off the rear of the limo four times due to the proximity of crowds on Jackie's side. USSS SA Driver Bill Greer had offset the limo to position the crowds further away on JFK's side. The crowd size with Gordo, Jackie, and JFK may have induced agents to ride the rear bumper as in the Tommy Eure photo five days earlier providing better ability to cover and evacuate. The agents would have to have come off the rear of the limo prior to the motorcade reaching the Stemmons Freeway but their presence may have deterred/shielded the shots. With Jackie even closer to JFK who knows if the risk of her getting hit may have acted as an additional deterrent to the assassination.

posted 07-28-2013 04:02 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by YankeeClipper:
Jackie's assigned US Secret Service (USSS) Special Agent (SA) Clint Hill was on/off the rear of the limo...

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For more, see page 38 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi.

posted 07-28-2013 04:04 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Skylon:
Nixon wanted to dine with the Apollo 11 crew at KSC a couple days prior to their launch...

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posted 07-28-2013 04:12 PM               

First, JFK knew that Jackie was immensely popular and potentially a major vote getter. JFK wanted to showcase Jackie during the Dallas visit as it would be her first foray into the political limelight since the 1960 campaign.

Second, presidential protocol dictates that Jackie would be seated next to JFK, putting her in the middle and Cooper on the other side, if he were to ride in the presidential limo. There was no way Cooper would be allowed to sit between them.

Third, with Cooper on one side and JFK on the other, Jackie would not be easily seen, defeating JFK's intention of showing off the First Lady. Like it or not, Jackie Kennedy, at that time, was far more a popular celebrity than Gordon Cooper, or Wally Schirra, or Scott Carpenter, or Gus Grissom.

Had Cooper agreed to go to Dallas, he probably would have replaced Sen. Ralph Yarborough riding with LBJ and LadyBird in the VP limo.

posted 07-28-2013 05:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
JFK actually requested that Secret Service agents Clint Hill and John Ready not ride on the running boards... Once clear of the crowds, both agents followed Kennedy's orders and did not ride on the two rear steps.

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quote:

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...riding on the running boards of the Vice President's limo.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Headshot:
First, JFK knew that Jackie was immensely popular and potentially a major vote getter. JFK wanted to showcase Jackie during the Dallas visit as it would be her first foray into the political limelight since the 1960 campaign.

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quote:

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Third, with Cooper on one side and JFK on the other, Jackie would not be easily seen, defeating JFK's intention of showing off the First Lady.

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quote:

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Had Cooper agreed to go to Dallas, he probably would have replaced Sen. Ralph Yarborough riding with LBJ and LadyBird in the VP limo.

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posted 07-28-2013 06:43 PM               

Cooper says he met Kennedy on the evening of Nov. 21, 1963 at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio. Kennedy however, was in Houston that night, attending a dinner at the Coliseum.

So was Cooper at Brooks Air Force Base earlier in the day, or in Houston for the dinner?

According to Texas Public Radio, Kennedy's appearance at Brooks was a surprise to the airmen stationed there:

They had no idea he'd be coming, not until about five minutes prior.

posted 07-28-2013 09:45 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by YankeeClipper:
There is some interesting refutation of that alleged 'directive' here.

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Vincent Palamara is a conspiracy theorist. His book "Third Alternative" and its claims are refuted by Bugliosi. If it comes to believing whether there was a Presidential request not to ride on the limo, I take the extensive research done by Bugliosi every time.

posted 07-29-2013 06:30 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Headshot:
I disagree that JFK was in full re-election mode.

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quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
Vincent Palamara is a conspiracy theorist.

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posted 07-29-2013 07:02 AM               

The book was written in 1968 and Bishop interviewed a lot of people for it who were involved in the Dallas trip and who are no longer with us. I am positive he would have included mention of a Kennedy invitation to Cooper, had it been serious or had it occurred at all.

posted 07-29-2013 10:40 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Headshot:
The Dallas trip was not a campaign trip, it was intended to resolve a split between the John Connally Texas Democrats and the Ralph Yarborough Texas Democrats.

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All the evidence points to this. In fact, the split was so deep that the two factions came to blows on the floor of the 1960 National Convention.

In 1963, both sides had favoured locations for the luncheon. Yarborough wanted the Women's Building while Connally wanted the Trade Mart. Eventually, the Governor prevailed. However, this did not mean that there would have been a motorcade. Indeed, Connally didn't want one but acceded to White House wishes.

The fact that the route from Love Field to the Trade Mart went passed the Book Depository when it didn't need to is down to history. The only previous Presidential visit to Dallas was by President Roosevelt in 1936, so Kennedy's route to include Main Street followed tradition and precedence.

On edit - five members of the White House Secret Service detail gave evidence to the Warren Commission that Kennedy did not like any of the detail riding on the rear bumper. It is recorded that twice in 1963 he specifically asked that they refrain, the last in Tampa just four days before the fateful day in Dallas.

posted 07-29-2013 10:59 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Are there any photos of Kennedy and Cooper together on Nov. 21, 1963, or Cooper at either event?

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posted 07-29-2013 11:22 AM               

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Getting back to Cooper's account of meeting President Kennedy, how much can we independently verify?

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USAF Aerospace Medical Division HQ Office of Information News Release No. 171 dated November 8 1963 indicates that the President and other high ranking government and military figures were scheduled to arrive at Brooks AFB, San Antonio, TX at approx. 3:30pm on Thursday November 21st. The President was to be the honored guest and featured speaker at ceremonies dedicating $6.2 million worth of new buildings. There was to be an open house. After the dedication address, the President was scheduled to tour the new facilities, including observing a 42-day sealed altitude chamber test of Project Gemini and Apollo space cabin atmosphere.

USAF Aerospace Medical Division HQ Office of Information News Release No. 177 dated November 19 1963 revised the President's scheduled arrival time at Brooks AFB to 2:25pm Thursday November 21st.

Here is an excellent photo of JFK, Jackie, and Nellie Connally sitting together on the backseat of the limo on November 21 1963 in San Antonio, TX. Gordo could have sat where Nellie was seated in this photo. Later in downtown San Antonio this photo of the limo shows that the Connallys are seated in opposite positions to those they occupied on November 22 1963 in Dallas.

According to the JFK Presidential Library, on November 21 1963 JFK formally dedicated six new buildings of the USAF Aerospace Medical Division at Brooks Air Force Base, Texas. These included the AMD HQ Building, Bioastronautics-Biodynamics Building, Bionucleonics Laboratory, Aerospace Medical Library, Vivarium Support Facility, and Heating/Cooling Plant Extension.

At 4:52pm November 21 1963 Air Force One departed wheels-up out of Kelly Field, San Antonio, TX. At 5:37pm AF1 arrived wheels-down in Houston, TX. JFK and Jackie went to the International Suite of the Rice Hotel, Houston, TX before addressing a meeting of the League of United Latin American Citizens in the Grand Ballroom. JFK then attended the Sam Houston Coliseum, Houston TX at a banquet honoring Rep. Albert Thomas, who had been instrumental in bringing the future Johnson Space Center to Houston. More than 3,200 people attended the dinner - probably the largest seated dinner ever held in Texas at that time.

posted 07-29-2013 04:36 PM               

On that date there were only 2 Project Mercury astronauts who were USAF officers and who had spaceflight experience, viz Gus Grissom and Gordon Cooper. Deke Slayton was a Project Mercury astronaut but had recently resigned from the USAF to pursue his role with NASA, and had no spaceflight experience at that point.

None of the 1962 Group 2 or 1963 Group 3 USAF astronauts had flown in space and Project Gemini had not launched a manned mission.

posted 07-29-2013 11:38 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
On edit - five members of the White House Secret Service detail gave evidence to the Warren Commission that Kennedy did not like any of the detail riding on the rear bumper. It is recorded that twice in 1963 he specifically asked that they refrain, the last in Tampa just four days before the fateful day in Dallas.

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USSS Chief James Rowley testified the following on p.470 as detailed here:

"No President will tell the Secret Service what they can or cannot do.

Sometimes it might be as a political man or individual he might think this might not look good in a given situation. But that does not mean per se that he doesn't want you on there. And I don't think anyone with commonsense interprets it as such."

posted 07-30-2013 03:07 AM               

Mr. Rowley left the White House detail in 1961. Right at the beginning of his testimony to the Warren Commission he was asked what his responsibilities were. He replied that they were general and that, "The actual direct supervision would have been under the jurisdiction of Mr. Behn who was in charge of the White House detail."

Mr. Behn, in a written statement to the Commission said, "The policy of special agents covering the Presidential vehicle is flexible ...... but perhaps the dominant factor, the desires or instructions of the President."

posted 07-30-2013 08:58 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
Oh, my! You really can't be allowed to get away with this.

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USSS WHD SAIC Behn, who was in Washington DC at the time of the assassination, also testified that:

"There is always an experienced agent riding in the front seat of the presidential vehicle, and there is an experienced agent either riding in the front seat of our follow-up car or standing on the front right running board. Either one or both of these agents have the authority, if it becomes necessary, to either motion or tell the agents in the follow-up car to take their positions around the presidential car at any time."

"...if anybody really wanted to shoot the President of the United States, it was not a very difficult job - all one had to do was get a high building some day with a telescopic rifle, and there was nothing anybody could do to defend against such an attempt on the President's life."

History, tragically, proved that point.

posted 07-31-2013 04:11 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by YankeeClipper:
The threat in Dealey Plaza from such a slow turn in front of tall buildings and elevated positions was real, and agents should have been on the rear of the limo to either deter and/or cover and evacuate.

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In your post on 28th you say, "I, for one, have never bought the idea of that alleged 'directive' from JFK.". However, despite there being evidence that there was a desire/instruction from Kennedy, you offer no reason why Hill/Ready weren't on the back of the Presidential limo carrying out their prime directive. If you don't believe there was such an instruction, are you suggesting that these two agents were derelict in their duties? This is an odd stance to take as it is on record that all the agents on the Presidential detail, with one exception, thought the world of Kennedy and would do anything for him.

Incidentally, you are correct in saying that agent Lawson was alarmed at the presence of high rise buildings on the turn into Dealey Plaza. However, it was not Secret Service policy in 1963 to search either buildings or windows overlooking a motorcade route due to lack of manpower and resources.

posted 07-31-2013 01:14 PM               

Here is the complete text of an article from the 21 November 1963 newspaper for the Aerospace Medical Dvision ("The Astro Medic,", page 1 inset):

Astronaut Cooper Attends Dedication

Astronaut Gordon Cooper is a guest of honor at the USAF School of Aerospace Medicine, today.

The Air Force major's attendance at the dedication ceremonies was confirmed by the NASA Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston. Dr. Charles A. Berry, chief of the center's medical operations office, is also attending.

Major Cooper won world-wide fame last May when he orbited the world 22 times. He is now co-ordinator of Astronaut Input with NASA's Project Gemini.

To address some of Robert's other questions:

This accompanied a larger article on Kennedy's dedication of the facilities. Given that this had time to make the front page of the base paper (which refers to the visit in future tense), Kennedy's visit could not have been much of a surprise to at least some of the base personnel, or at least to anyone associated with the dedication or hosting of VIPs.

The Kennedy article also mentions that the ceremonies were to be held at 1pm, leaving plenty of time for Cooper (and Kennedy) to get to Houston in time for dinner. This was a few hours earlier than the news releases (from a few days earlier) cited by YankeeClipper.

posted 07-31-2013 01:57 PM               

Assuming Cooper attended as planned, then I have to imagine there is a photo of him at the dedication, as well as a photo of him that day with Kennedy (if they are not one and the same). It may be sitting in a newspaper's archive as a never-published negative, but then I can't imagine, given the events of the next day, a reason why every photograph of Kennedy taken the day prior to his tragic death wouldn't have been released by now.

posted 07-31-2013 02:16 PM               

Flight Crew Support Division reported an agreement with Flight Operations Division on a flight profile and rendezvous evaluation experiment for the Gemini-Titan 4 mission. Objective of the experiment was to stimulate normal Agena/Gemini rendezvous and to repeat part of the maneuver using loss of signal/manual technique. Basically, the mission would use circular phasing and catch-up orbit as proposed by the Flight Crew Support Division. Exact fuel requirements and ground tracking requirement were under study by Flight Operations Division.

posted 07-31-2013 07:18 PM               

"By the fall of 1963, President John F. Kennedy and his political advisers were preparing for the next presidential campaign. Although he had not formally announced his candidacy, it was clear that President Kennedy was going to run and he seemed confident about his chances for re-election.

At the end of September, the president traveled west, speaking in nine different states in less than a week. The trip was meant to put a spotlight on natural resources and conservation efforts. But JFK also used it to sound out themes—such as education, national security, and world peace—for his run in 1964.

Campaigning in Texas

A month later, the president addressed Democratic gatherings in Boston and Philadelphia. Then, on November 12, he held the first important political planning session for the upcoming election year. At the meeting, JFK stressed the importance of winning Florida and Texas and talked about his plans to visit both states in the next two weeks. Mrs. Kennedy would accompany him on the swing through Texas, which would be her first extended public appearance since the loss of their baby, Patrick, in August. On November 21, the president and first lady departed on Air Force One for the two-day, five-city tour of Texas.

President Kennedy was aware that a feud among party leaders in Texas could jeopardize his chances of carrying the state in 1964, and one of his aims for the trip was to bring Democrats together. He also knew that a relatively small but vocal group of extremists was contributing to the political tensions in Texas and would likely make its presence felt — particularly in Dallas, where U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Adlai Stevenson had been physically attacked a month earlier after making a speech there. Nonetheless, JFK seemed to relish the prospect of leaving Washington, getting out among the people and into the political fray.

The first stop was San Antonio. Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson, Governor John B. Connally, and Senator Ralph W. Yarborough led the welcoming party. They accompanied the president to Brooks Air Force Base for the dedication of the Aerospace Medical Health Center. Continuing on to Houston, he addressed a Latin American citizens' organization and spoke at a testimonial dinner for Congressman Albert Thomas before ending the day in Fort Worth."

JFK's speech at Brooks AFB on November 21 1963 spoke of the New Frontier and the US place in history and how it was "a time for pathfinders and pioneers". On a political level, it was a defense of the continued US investment in space exploration and its benefits:

"There will be, as there always are, pressures in this country to do less in this area as in so many others, and temptations to do something else that is perhaps easier. But this research here must go on. This space effort must go on. The conquest of space must and will go ahead."

Especially so given the headlines of newspapers on the morning of November 22 1963 which focused on the Democratic split. JFK told O'Donnell that he wanted Senator Yarborough to ride in Vice-President Johnson's car in the Dallas motorcade and that no excuses would be accepted. O'Donnell then told campaign strategist Larry O'Brien that he must spell out the alternative for Yarborough - either he rode in Johnson's car or he walked.

So had Cooper accepted JFK's invitation, it is nearly certain he would not have replaced Senator Yarborough in the Vice-President's car, for political reasons. There was a clear need to present a unified front and distract attention from the split. It is possible that Cooper could have sat immediately beside JFK in the middle as was originally suggested, ensuring good visibility for the President and First Lady while allowing JFK to be seen side-by-side with a newly-minted space hero. Seating protocol may have been waived for political opportunism and positive press coverage.

posted 07-31-2013 08:00 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kr4mula:
The Kennedy article also mentions that the ceremonies were to be held at 1pm

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quote:

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My guess is that Cooper may have slightly mixed up the time and place of his supposed conversation with Kennedy about riding in the limo. They may have talked at Brooks, but in the afternoon (not evening), or else they may have spoken that evening, but in Houston, not San Antonio.

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Well done on finding a great source!

posted 08-01-2013 11:16 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
What systems test in November of 1963, with Mercury concluded and Gemini not yet ready to fly, would be so important as to to decline a Presidential request?

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NASA and USAF personnel were focused on fixing the problems of thrust axis longitudinal oscillation/vibration during powered flight (POGO effect), combustion instability, and an aggregate series of smaller issues. POGO bouncing was a serious pilot safety issue as it compromised an astronaut's visual and cognitive performance. NASA stipulated the upper limit for pilot safety for POGO was +/-0.25g. Combustion instability meant that the booster engine was potentially dynamically unstable and could not be man-rated.

On November 1 1963, the launch of Titan II R&D Missile N-25 proved for the first time that the POGO problem may have had a solution. On November 15 1963, the day before JFK and Cooper discussed Project Gemini at the Cape, NASA and the USAF both issued planning documents related to fixing the problem. The launch of Titan II R&D Missile N-29 on December 12 1963 from LC-15 was to be a key test to provide further confirmation of the POGO fix and allow man-rating of the booster.

posted 08-02-2013 01:54 AM               

In testimony to the Warren Commission he was asked about the reasons for visiting Texas.

Arlen Specter: Would you outline the origin of that trip to Texas, please?

Kenneth O'Donnell: It came from a conversation between the President and Vice President Johnson, and myself. It concerned President Kennedy's desire, and President Johnson's desire that he came to Texas...

Arlen Specter: In a general way, what was the purpose of the President's trip to Texas in November of 1963?

Kenneth O'Donnell: Well, he hadn't conducted any political activities in Texas. There were great controversies existing. There was a party problem in Texas that the President and the Vice President felt he could be helpful, as both sides of the controversy were supporting President Kennedy, and they felt he could be a bridge between these two groups, and this would be helpful in the election of 1964. I think that is the major reason for the trip.

posted 08-02-2013 05:25 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
Just to tie up some loose ends.

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"Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the origin of that trip to Texas, please?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The origin of the trip I would think came from a conversation between the President, then Vice President Johnson, and myself. It concerned President Kennedy's desire, and President Johnson's desire that he come to Texas and spend some time there, looking forward to the campaign of 1964, in which Texas would play a very vital role in President Kennedy's view."

cS members should keep an eye out mid-November 2013 for a 2 hour National Geographic Channel documentary on the final 24 hours of JFK's life.

Footage was recently shot at the former Brooks AFB and interviews conducted with Airman Philip Jameson and Dr. Billy Welch who were involved with the altitude chamber test that JFK viewed for 20-25mins. The documentary uses period photos/footage and may provide visual confirmation of Cooper's presence.

posted 08-02-2013 10:02 PM               

He is 90 now and has an office in Houston - a brief phone call might confirm everything, especially if he attended with Cooper.