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Author
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Topic: Most important Apollo astronaut
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kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-14-2011 11:14 AM
   
In the latest issue of "Quest," Roger Launius reviewed a book by Susan Faludi (p. 61) and in it, he makes the statement, "No single astronaut was more important than [Buzz] Aldrin in helping the United States reach the Moon, whose work on orbital rendezvous and extravehicular activity fostered the critical skills necessary for the successful Apollo missions." While it is a little vague whether it is Roger or Faludi making that claim, I found the claim to be thought provoking. My questions for the audience: - Do you agree or disagree with the statement? Why?
- If not Aldrin, who would you consider the most important astronaut "in helping the United States reach the Moon"? Why?
Keep in mind this is a different issue than previous discussions about who was the "best" astronaut and so forth. This seems to get at who made the most significant contribution in their technical capacities, rather than simply for flying a particularly significant mission. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 09-14-2011 11:25 AM
Was it Neil Armstrong who refered to Apollo as the ultimate team effort? Personally I can't see how it would be possible to class any astronaut as being more important than another. It does also feel a little bit like the question misses out on the importance of engineers, scientests and the other 'back room boys' whose work fed into the role performed by the astronauts. |
HistorianMom
Member Posts: 105
From: Columbia, Missouri USA
Registered: Nov 2010
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posted 09-14-2011 12:17 PM
I know! Let's ask Buzz what HE thinks! |
BarryLowe
Member Posts: 24
From: Castle Rock, Colorado, USA
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 09-14-2011 12:20 PM
I think it's a great question. Just because it was a total team effort doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on who was the most important or most valuable contributor. Championship winning teams can have an MVP, and quite often that isn't the star player or the one with the most talent.My vote would be Frank Borman, for the work he did after the fire to get the Command Module fixed and back on track, and then to command the very bold Apollo 8 mission to make the end-of-the-decade moon landing goal feasible again. Just my opinion of course. |
413 is in
Member Posts: 628
From: Alexandria, VA USA
Registered: May 2006
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posted 09-14-2011 12:47 PM
Deke Slayton. |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 09-14-2011 12:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by HistorianMom:
I know! Let's ask Buzz what HE thinks!
Well, he was the second person to walk on the moon! And he did pioneer EVA training, all by himself! |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-14-2011 01:29 PM
I think it's a fair question that doesn't diminish the role of the scientists, engineers, managers, etc. It just asks who was the most significant contributor among (just) the astronauts. Just because Buzz, for example, helped with rendezvous, doesn't mean that Bill Tindall and his crew were less important or did less than Buzz. I also think the missions they flew aren't very relevant to the question, though I suppose one could make valid arguments about Buzz demonstrating safe, effective EVA on Gemini or Lovell shepherding 13 back home. |
garymilgrom
Member Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 09-14-2011 01:30 PM
Borman is a good choice for the reasons given.Many astronauts talk about Pete Conrad as the ultimate good guy on the Apollo team. I would think this has as much to do with morale as anything else. I bet keeping morale high when others were picked for prime crews was one of the most difficult parts of the program, and the astros got little help from management. Therefore I think Pete is a good choice too. And if you really narrow the question down to only the "most significant contribution in their technical capacities" then Harrison Schmidt comes to mind. Good question! |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 09-14-2011 03:34 PM
Good question, and all the choices listed by other posters have merit. To put in my two cents worth, I would nominate Dave Scott. With the first of the lunar missions using an LRV and extended stays on the moon, he (and Irwin) eagerly jumped in and soaked up everything Drs. El-Baz, Shoemaker and other lunar geologists threw at them. With his enthusiasm and leadership at the head of Apollo 15, he set an example for the rest of the moon landings as far as scientific returns were concerned. |
bwhite1976
Member Posts: 281
From: Belleville, IL
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 09-14-2011 03:55 PM
It would seem like the question should be which astronaut contributed the most "on the ground." White, Cernan, Collins and Gordon certainly contributed to EVA development on their flights even though Aldrin's EVA stands out as the EVA during the Gemini program where real progress and confidence of technique was made. If we can't include the acts completed on the actual missions, then Aldrin's EVA should not be included either. I mean without White's successful EVA or the experience of Gordon, Collins, and Cernan then who knows what happens after that in respects to EVA development. I understand the reasoning behind Aldrin, but I would probably go with Borman as well. His leadership after the fire was a saving grace at a time when some people wanted to shut down Apollo. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-14-2011 04:11 PM
Had it not been for the coolness and skill under extreme pressure of Neil Armstrong and Dave Scott on Gemini 8, the loss of a crew and spacecraft in orbit might have stalled the U.S. space programme for long enough to result in Kennedy's deadline being missed. So perhaps the answer should be Neil Armstrong after all... |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-14-2011 06:33 PM
If I had to pick one, I'd have to say Jim McDivitt, simply because he commanded the first manned flight test of the LM. Had that mission failed it would have had a significant impact on the prospect of a Apollo lunar landing. And he went on to become Apollo Program Manager. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1587
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-14-2011 07:20 PM
Wow -- what a question, that's like asking what is the best Beatles' song. I think it is a tie, Armstrong and Aldrin. If Gemini 8 doesn't come home or if EVA fails on 12, then the moon landing program doesn't happen, or certainly not in 1969. Borman is a close second. |
4allmankind
Member Posts: 1043
From: Dallas
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 09-14-2011 07:42 PM
This is a fun hypothetical question that I have given a little thought on in the past...
Clearly, all candidates mentioned above are deserving of the title but I would like to put the second vote in for Jim McDivitt. He commanded both of his flights and both were critical towards the success of a future moon landing. I think the more impressive fact to back McDivitt is that each of his ground breaking missions were very early in each respective program before all the hardware and techniques he was asked to utilize were fully proven. Combine those achievements in space with his Apollo management role, and my vote goes to McDivitt. Again, no right answer but a neat topic to discuss. |
DJS
Member Posts: 23
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 09-14-2011 09:04 PM
I do not know if Buzz Aldrin was the most important, but I am sure that he was among the most important. I have a great deal of respect for Buzz Aldrin and it makes me very angry when others mock him, especially when it is his fellow astronauts who do so. I feel that Aldrin was underestimated by Deke Slayton and others. For example, Aldrin's first crew assignment was backup pilot of Gemini 10, which was a dead end job. After Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were killed he became backup pilot of Gemini 9 and hence, flew as pilot on Gemini 12. His first assignment should not have been a dead end one. It should not have took the deaths of other astronauts for Aldrin to fly in Gemini. He should have been groomed and slated for Gemini from DAY ONE! |
music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-15-2011 02:15 AM
For years I, too, felt that Aldrin was singularly important towards the completion of Apollo. Over the years however, I got to appreciate that teamwork is at the crux of space exploration (and most human endeavors, big and small). Aldrin's issues with ego eventually got in the way.In the other hand, astronauts mentionned before, such as Borman, Scott, Slayton and McDivitt were all deserving team players. As a matter of fact, I feel that such a challenge to nominate one single person should be opened to all involved, in which case I nominate Dr. Robert Gilruth. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 09-15-2011 02:15 AM
My vote goes to Jim McDivitt too. Not only for the reasons given above but also because his Apollo 9 flight proved some of the techniques used in the successful recovery of Apollo 13.This said, I suppose it comes down to a personal perspective on the astronauts themselves and their place in an overall view of the Apollo programme. So, I'd have to make Wally Schirra a close second for no other reason than because he's my favourite. He was an accomplished professional and his Apollo 7 flight laid the foundations for a rethink by NASA in the relationship between the in-flight crews and Mission Control even though he paid the price for daring to raise this question. This had an impact on all future missions. |
BBlatcher
Member Posts: 57
From: Savannah, GA, USA
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 09-15-2011 07:39 AM
Quick question: How can Aldrin even be considered as the most important? What did he do or contribute that would even make people think he was important? Seriously, he only got the Gemini flight 'cause someone else died. On Apollo 11, he only got to walk on the moon because Armstrong and Deke Slayton felt Collins was more capable of being the CMP, so he got "promoted" to that role, while Aldrin was pushed back to be lowest man on the totem pole. Sure, he was brilliant and capable, but most important?! What am I missing here? |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 09-15-2011 08:53 AM
Buzz the most important? HAH! Okay, he was important, but not the MOST important. Indeed as others have said, Apollo was a TEAM effort and it took a lot of things to go right for it to work. If anything, while astronauts were an important part, they were a very small part of a very big effort. Of course, it was their lives that were on the line from launch to splashdown so they knew if they did not get it right, they might not come home.A lot of people credit Buzz's role in Gemini 12 as being a big factor in terms of his importance and indeed "Dr. Rendezvous" managed to help achieve a manual rendezvous with Agena using his charts and his brain. He was in the right place at the right time for that. But if the rendezvous and docking hadn't been accomplished, I don't think it would have been a mission killer as four previous Gemini flights had achieved Agena dockings. The EVA though was a team effort as it wasn't just Buzz who came up with the idea of the water tank work, other engineers came to that conclusion as well. If Gene Cernan had flown that mission as Deke was considering (when the AMU was considered for reflight and Deke felt Geno had more experience with it than Buzz), I think he would have done just fine as he knew what NOT to do during an EVA by that point and the revised training procedures and equipment also would have helped as well. As for my nominee, I say Tom Stafford. One reason is because of his efforts in Gemini. He also lobbied the astronaut corps to get T-38s for their trainers (as opposed to the F-4s that Pete Conrad wanted). But the main reason I nominate him is because of something he DIDN'T do as opposed to what he did do. During the leadup to Apollo 10, George Low proposed another hail mary pass equivalent to the Apollo 8 flight to the moon. Since LM4 was too heavy, it could not land on the moon, even if given a full fuel supply. So he proposed LM5 should be flown by Apollo 10. That way, they could land one mission early, achieve Kennedy's goal and if they didn't land, Apollo 11 and 12 could still do it. Stafford vetoed the idea for a very good reason. He knew there were still a lot of unknowns involved with testing a LM in lunar orbit as part of a dress rehersal for Apollo 11. He COULD have said "sure, I'll do it" and become the first man to land on the moon, but he opted to err on the side of caution instead and do his role as a test pilot, not a glory hound. And I believe he was right in his judgement as Apollo 10 had many things that had to be tested to help make sure Apollo 11s flight wouldn't be any more difficult than it was. And what might have happened on a lunar landing if Tom and Geno had their little AGS and PNGS switch repositioning problem when trying to come back from the moon (assuming they landed at all). They would have likely been a lot lower and possibly gone "kerr-splat" in the process. And the first attempt at a lunar landing might have ended up as a memorial for two lost astronauts in the process. |
garymilgrom
Member Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 09-15-2011 09:51 AM
Further to Jay's post, Stafford also pushed very hard for TV, then better TV (color) on the moon missions. From the perspective of the present it's hard to underestimate the value of these transmissions and recordings.It's equally hard to believe the NASA didn't understand the PR value of television from the moon and gave it little priority. Tom's persistance on this topic made the difference, and we all benefit from that choice up to the present. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-15-2011 04:22 PM
Schirra, Borman, McDivitt, Stafford and Armstrong have all been proposed. Now what do they all have in common? |
Charlie16
Member Posts: 494
From: Italy
Registered: Dec 2010
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posted 09-15-2011 04:45 PM
Buzz may have had an impact in the lunar program, but we can not say that his work was more important than his colleagues...How can we not mention Slayton, Stafford, Armstrong, Lovell... everyone did their part to make a dream. Buzz has been perhaps the media image. I agree with Gary, I think Stafford has been a major mind, it is also seen in the various gatherings, everyone astronauts has a real reverence for him. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 09-16-2011 01:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
Schirra, Borman, McDivitt, Stafford and Armstrong have all been proposed. Now what do they all have in common?
Are you going to tell us?  |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3208
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-16-2011 03:17 AM
Schirra, Borman, McDivitt, Stafford, Armstrong, Conrad, Lovell and Young were all Gemini and Apollo Commanders. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1587
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-16-2011 06:29 AM
Earlier, it was noted that Aldrin got his Gemini flight because someone died. Well, the same can be said for Stafford on Gemini 9. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 09-16-2011 07:20 AM
I don't like to put one above the other. They all did outstanding work. But if I were to name one (of many) it could be Frank Borman. His dedication and hard work on the Apollo 1 Accident Review Board, helped Northrop with the redesign of the Apollo spacecraft following the Apollo 1 fire helped NASA and the spaceeprogram to move foreward after the Apollo 1 accident. |
BBlatcher
Member Posts: 57
From: Savannah, GA, USA
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 09-16-2011 01:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
Earlier, it was noted that Aldrin got his Gemini flight because someone died. Well, the same can be said for Stafford on Gemini 9.
Well yes, but Stafford had already flown on Gemini 6, so he was far from a rookie. I brought it up about Aldrin because it's debatable whether he would have been part of Apollo 11 without that Gemini flight that he got because someone else died. Add on the fact that Armstrong was offered Jim Lovell on Apollo 11 by Slayton, but decided to stick with Buzz because he felt Lovell deserved his own command, not necessarily because of anything spectacular about Buzz and that Gemini flight seems fairly important. Not that Buzz was the only astronaut that got his first flight due to someone's death. Alan Bean on Apollo 12 lucked into similar situation due to CC Williams death in training accident. Bean managed to walk on the moon on his first flight into space, which isn't too shabby, but then again he's not be cited as the most important astronaut to Apollo, so he seat in Apollo isn't being questioned. Buzz was supposedly Dr. Rendezvous. Yet he not on the prime or backup crew for Gemini 6, which was intended to be the first docking in space (but got canceled due to an exploding docking target). Nor was he on any crew on Gemini 7 when the first rendezvous did occur and neither on Gemini 8 when the first docking did occur. Obviously Aldrin is smart man, with plenty of skills and talents. But most important astronaut in Apollo? I'm not seeing it. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-16-2011 05:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
Well, the same can be said for Stafford on Gemini 9.
Stafford was in line to command Gemini 12 before he replaced Elliot See on Gemini 9, so it simply moved his second mission up a few months sooner. |
DChudwin
Member Posts: 1096
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 09-16-2011 09:00 PM
It should be noted that McDivitt (Gemini 4), Borman (Gemini 7) and Armstrong (Gemini 8) were the only men who were Gemini Commanders without having previously flown in space. As to who were the most important Apollo astronauts, I would go with McDivitt, Borman and Stafford in that order. McDivitt's role as Apollo Spacecraft Program Manager for missions 12-16 has been under-appreciated, especially his actions during the Apollo 13 near-tragedy. Borman was a key figure in the return-to-flight after the Apollo 1 Fire and he was commander of the triumphant Apollo 8,which was the first to reach the Moon. Stafford, after commanding Apollo 10, became head of the Astronaut Office and later as commander of ASTP a vital link between the U.S. and Russian programs (a role that continues to this day). Certainly Buzz Aldrin made some important contributions but my opinion is that they were not as significant to the success of Apollo. |
randy
Member Posts: 2176
From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-16-2011 10:12 PM
I would have to say Schirra, Eisle and Cunningham. They helped Apollo rise from the ashes of Apollo 1. |
ApolloAlex
Member Posts: 390
From: Yeovil, England
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 09-17-2011 01:41 PM
I would have to say for myself it would be Harrison Schmitt, although sadly it was at the expense of Joe Engle, he persevered through Astronaut and Jet training, played a key role in training Moon bound Astronauts to be geologic observers. And even after Apollo 17 continued in a active role documenting the Apollo geologic results. So he has my vote especially for someone who worked hard and was totally dedicated to his goal. |
Rob Joyner
Member Posts: 1308
From: GA, USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 09-17-2011 03:12 PM
The first, the only, the last, the most intelligent, the bravest, the most experienced, the most daring, the most adaptable. One could certainly give many reasons why any Apollo astronaut should be considered the most important, but I really think those astronauts would simply shake their heads at such a question and state the fact that there is no most important Apollo astronaut. |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 09-17-2011 03:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
The EVA though was a team effort as it wasn't just Buzz who came up with the idea of the water tank work, other engineers came to that conclusion as well.
Last year, I decided to stop by a Kennedy Space Center gift shop in the Orlando airport, and noticed a children's picture book published by Buzz Aldrin (I think it was Reaching for the Moon). I glanced through the pages, and came across one where he was basically saying that he played a large role in deciding to train for EVA's underwater. It was at that moment that I put it down, and walked off. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-17-2011 04:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spaceguy5:
...where he was basically saying that he played a large role in deciding to train for EVA's underwater.
To be fair, that's not what Aldrin says. Quoting: We also had to learn to move in the weightlessness of space. The others trained with a system of ropes and pulleys, but I thought training underwater would work much better. I spent hours in the pool tethered to an air line. Remember, this is a children's book, not a dissertation on the subject, but nothing he says in those few words is not true.Further, in a more academic text contemporary to "Reaching for the Moon" ("In the Shadow of the Moon" by Burgess and French), Aldrin explicitly says that training underwater was not his original idea. "Not mine," Aldrin answered when the authors asked him if it was his idea. That said, as the first prime crew member to train underwater for an EVA, Aldrin did "play a large role" in proving the concept. |
BBlatcher
Member Posts: 57
From: Savannah, GA, USA
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 09-17-2011 05:53 PM
Michael Collins mentioned that underwater training was an option for his Gemini 10 spacewalk, but there just wasn't enough time. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1587
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-19-2011 01:14 PM
Nothing against Stafford, but it would be less likely that Stafford would have been in the very early Apollo rotation if he had flown 12. |
star61
Member Posts: 294
From: Bristol UK
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 09-19-2011 04:08 PM
The crew of Apollo 1Without that sacrifice the landing by 1969 was very unlikely to have happened. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-19-2011 05:50 PM
I stand by September 14th post, but I'm slightly surprised that John Young has not been mentioned. This leads on to a question: bearing in mind that Young flew on the first Gemini mission and then commanded Gemini 10, and noting that Tom Stafford didn't fly until Gemini 6 and only flew a second mission before Young because of the deaths of the original Gemini 9 crew, why was Stafford offered the command of Apollo 10 with Young only getting second-in-command? Was it because of rendezvous experience* or is there some other reason? (Surely not the corned beef sandwich!!?)*of which Young had plenty on G-10! |
Skylon
Member Posts: 274
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 09-20-2011 07:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
...why was Stafford offered the command of Apollo 10 with Young only getting second-in-command?
A couple factors I think played into this. Stafford for starters rotated to Apollo before Young - so he had a head start on crew training, as a member of Apollo 205's backup crew.Also remember, Stafford was in the original rotation to fly as pilot on Gemini 3, when Alan Shepard was assigned as commander. Stafford was bumped to Gemini 6 when Shepard was grounded because Deke Slayton felt John Young was a better personality match for Gus Grissom, and it had become clearer to Slayton that Stafford was the strongest of his group on rendezvous, so reassigning him to Gemini 6 made sense. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-20-2011 09:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
Also remember, Stafford was in the original rotation to fly as pilot on Gemini 3, when Alan Shepard was assigned as commander.
Good point, I had forgotten that...although it suggests that allocation of a flight which doesn't happen is more important than an actual flight in terms of priority (?) |
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