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Author Topic:   Mercury, Gemini, Apollo astronauts who still fly
golddog
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From: australia
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posted 07-09-2010 02:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for golddog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am curious from my readings as to which astronauts from the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo era still hold current pilots licenses and still fly today. For instance I know that Bill Anders and Frank Borman still fly warbirds and Neil Armstrong is apparently still a legal pilot, whilst others such as Mike Collins and Dave Scott apparently stopped flying in the 70's and 80's. Anyone know who is still current?

Tykeanaut
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From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
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posted 07-09-2010 04:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tykeanaut   Click Here to Email Tykeanaut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An interesting question, I would like to know too if anyone has any information.

Henry Heatherbank
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From: Adelaide, South Australia
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posted 07-09-2010 05:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henry Heatherbank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Slightly off topic, but I recall an interesting passage in "Shirra's Space" where Wally describes landing, taxiing in, shutting down the engines and walking away from the flightline on his final flight forever, knowing and accepting he would never pilot a jet aircraft again.

Obviously all young pilots recall with fondness their first flight or first solo, and the retelling of those stories is quite commonplace. You don't often hear stories about old pilots' last flights, so this is why I have always recalled the passage in Schirra's Space. Quite melancholic, mixed with a sense of pride and finality over the closure of that part of that pilot's career.

golddog
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From: australia
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posted 07-09-2010 05:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for golddog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, not off topic at all! Dave Scott describes a similar occurrence in his book with Leonov.

nasamad
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From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-09-2010 06:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nasamad   Click Here to Email nasamad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know Cernan was still flying in 2001, he had some kind of twin engined aircraft (I'm no good with aircraft). You can find it on the 2001 signing page for him on the Astronaut Central website.

ejectr
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From: Killingly, CT
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posted 07-09-2010 06:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
John Glenn is still active.

capoetc
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From: McKinney TX (USA)
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posted 07-09-2010 07:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I asked Jim Lovell if he was still flying (this was in 2007), and he said he was.

ejectr
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From: Killingly, CT
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posted 07-09-2010 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gene Cernan is still active. Jim Lovell does not currently show an active aviation medical certificate.

divemaster
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From: ridgefield, ct
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posted 07-09-2010 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for divemaster   Click Here to Email divemaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As of last November, Mary Weeks told me that Jim Lovell was still flying.

I'd guess that at their ages, insurance fees become a HUGE issue along with medical certification.

Spacefest
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From: Tucson, AZ
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posted 07-09-2010 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lovell, Borman, Anders, Cernan. In fact, Borman is flying his plane from Montana to Tucson for his signing.

You're right Tracy. there is only one plane that can be insured for them; They all fly a Cessna twin-engine (421?)

Cernan just had a knee re-replaced, so he'll have to be recertified.

ejectr
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From: Killingly, CT
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posted 07-09-2010 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Charlie Duke is still active.

Info on Cessna 421 Golden Eagle.

nasamad
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From: Essex, UK
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posted 07-09-2010 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nasamad   Click Here to Email nasamad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cernan has just had his knee re-replaced!

Is this the one he had done a few years back after his "other" helicopter accident? That would make it a re-recertification!

Kite
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From: Northampton UK
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posted 07-09-2010 03:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember asking Al Worden last September if he still flies and he replied, "Not as much as I'd like."

Delta7
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From: Bluffton IN USA
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posted 07-09-2010 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
Cernan has just had his knee re-replaced!
What's he doing with the old one? Let the bidding wars begin!

Lou Chinal
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From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007

posted 07-09-2010 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou Chinal   Click Here to Email Lou Chinal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember meeting Cernan in 2004-05. He had flown into Ohio in a business jet (I think it was a Cessna Citation).

mercsim
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Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 07-09-2010 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mercsim   Click Here to Email mercsim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
there is only one plane that can be insured for them
Seriously? If you can get insurance on a 421, you can probably get insurance on any single. Besides, insurance is highly over rated. Aircraft accidents are so rare, many GA pilots just carry liability, if that. I carry liability but most of my flying buddies that own their own airplanes don't even carry that.

"recertified" These guys are not flying for hire so they only need a Class 3 Medical. A knee replacement is trivial in the world of Class 3's. At their age, there are many more important things to look at. Most AME's would just spend a minute looking at it and consider it a non-issue.

Of course if they are flying light-sport airplanes, they don't even need a medical.

Spacefest
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From: Tucson, AZ
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posted 07-10-2010 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just because you're from Kleenix, doesn't mean you have to disagree.(lol) I was born and raised there, but escaped to cooler Tucson years ago.

I get my stories straight from the horse's mouth. These guys are pretty high profile, and go by the rules, they're not your flying buddies, and they're all at advanced ages.

Not being an aviator, I expect the 421 is safer, because it has two engines and is pressurized.

golddog
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From: australia
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posted 07-10-2010 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for golddog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you know what Colonel Borman now flies? I know General Anders owns a Mustang, but not what Mr. Borman flies. I've seen a picture of him with a Bell Aircobra.

gliderpilotuk
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From: London, UK
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posted 07-11-2010 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe Anders no longer flies the P-51. He is an accomplished glider pilot as well and enthused about it at the ASF show. Armstrong is of course also a glider pilot and until recently (if not still) goes soaring. Here is a clip of him from 60 minutes three years ago.

divemaster
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From: ridgefield, ct
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-11-2010 07:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for divemaster   Click Here to Email divemaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want to give the credit to Lovell, but I'm not sure. He gave his wife the choice of renewing his airplane license or getting a mistress. The plane won.

Mary said to me that she feels safer with Jim in a cockpit than behind the wheel of a car in bad weather. She is a hoot.

divemaster
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From: ridgefield, ct
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posted 07-11-2010 07:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for divemaster   Click Here to Email divemaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kite:
I remember asking Al Worden last September if he still flies and he replied, "Not as much as I'd like."
Did you ever ask Worden about the time he was invited into the cockpit of a Concorde? One of Al's classic stories.

Delta7
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From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007

posted 07-11-2010 09:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by golddog:
Do you know what Colonel Borman now flies? I know General Anders owns a Mustang, but not what Mr. Borman flies. I've seen a picture of him with a Bell Aircobra.

Borman was the owner of a P-51 which he flew. Don't know if he still does. I remember seeing something a couple of years ago about Anders' official "last flight" in his P-51, with family members present. I don't know if that meant last flight in the Mustang, or in a powered airplane.

mercsim
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From: Phoenix, AZ
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posted 07-11-2010 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mercsim   Click Here to Email mercsim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
These guys are pretty high profile, and go by the rules, they're not your flying buddies, and they're all at advanced ages.
I did not post or imply anything outside the rules. Most of my flying buddies are Airline pilots, ex-military pilots, and Test pilots. They are not doing anything outside the rules either. Insurance is not required by any rules or laws.

"Not being an aviator" clears it up...

Kite
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From: Northampton UK
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posted 07-11-2010 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by divemaster:
Did you ever ask Worden about the time he was invited into the cockpit of a Concorde?
No. Unfortunately I haven't heard that story. Could you tell us?

divemaster
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From: ridgefield, ct
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posted 07-11-2010 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for divemaster   Click Here to Email divemaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Basically, it had something to do with the PIC talking about how fast the aircraft was flying and then realizing who he was speaking to.

Spacefest
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From: Tucson, AZ
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posted 07-12-2010 12:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, we're both right. (except you're melting in Hell, AZ.) No, insurance is not required, and yes, the 421 is the only plane insurable for these guys (because it has two engines.)

Borman has sold all his planes, except a single-engine, two seat SIAI Marchetti.

moorouge
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From: U.K.
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posted 07-12-2010 02:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by divemaster:
Mary said to me that she feels safer with Jim in a cockpit than behind the wheel of a car in bad weather.
Sounds as if he still maintains his 'Captain Shakey' image.

AstronautBrian
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From: Louisiana
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posted 07-12-2010 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AstronautBrian   Click Here to Email AstronautBrian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does Neil Armstrong still fly his gliders?

capoetc
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From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 07-12-2010 08:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
...the 421 is the only plane insurable for these guys (because it has two engines).
I can't speak to the insurance requirements, but there is a belief among many that if one engine is good, two is better. Not necessarily true.

Accident rates among high-performance single engine and light twin engine aircraft are quite similar. However, the casualty rate is much higher on light twins (both crash at about the same rate, but you are more likely to be killed in a light twin crash).

If the engine quits on a single, you have no choice, you have to land the aircraft somewhere within gliding distance (assuming re-start is unsuccessful).

With a light twin, an engine failure leaves one engine still running -- especially on takeoff, the temptation among many pilots (too many) is to try to continue the takeoff on one engine, even though the aircraft is too slow at that point, and has too high a power setting, to prevent it from rolling inverted (not a good place to be close to terra firma).

In a light twin engine failure during takeoff, usually the best course of action is to retard BOTH throttles and land straight ahead.

An experienced pilot will have no problem handling the decision-making required in an engine failure scenario in a light twin, but it can be a death trap for the doctor / lawyer / etc who thinks a light twin is safer than a single because it has 2 engines ...

I know there are several insurance experts on this forum -- maybe one of them can chime in regarding why insurance rates would be lower on a light twin (not questioning the premise, just curious as to why)?

mercsim
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From: Phoenix, AZ
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posted 07-12-2010 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mercsim   Click Here to Email mercsim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nicely done. I have insured many planes through the years and you mention insurance being cheaper on a twin. I look forward to an insurance agent's opinion but twins are usually more expensive (not that a retired astronaut would care) because their hull is more valuable.

I only chimed in because it was said the 421 was the ONLY insurable...

Spacefest
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From: Tucson, AZ
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posted 07-12-2010 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mercsim:
I only chimed in because it was said the 421 was the ONLY insurable...

That's what I was told by two astronauts. Incidentally, Lovell bought a 421 few years back, that Cernan spotted for sale in Houston.

Larry McGlynn is a prominent insurance man, perhaps he can answer. I'm curious, too.

ejectr
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From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 07-12-2010 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tell you a little story about aircraft insurance. We just picked up a new partner in our Grumman Tiger partnership. Same type of single engine, general aviation aircraft Mike Griffin flies.

He was ex-Navy fighter pilot... retired Air National Guard A10 pilot...ex-Delta Airlines Captain on a 737, 757 and 767. Was a check pilot for Delta for other Captains on the 767. He now flies a Citation corporate jet and has over 12,000 hours of flight time.

When we called the insurance company to set him up on our insurance, their reply: "He needs 5 hours dual instruction in the Tiger before he can solo it."

They don't care who you are or where you walked.

Delta7
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From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007

posted 07-12-2010 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And probably a wise requirement. All that time does not mean he can jump into a small single engine airplane and fly it blindfolded as some might assume. Even little gaps of knowledge can result in an expensive accident. As a 35-year career pilot with over 15,000 hours of flight time in single-engine airplanes and jets, I have never flown a Tiger. If I were planning on doing so as pilot-in-command, I would want and expect a few hours of instruction from someone who knows THAT airplane.

Larry McGlynn
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From: Boston, MA
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posted 07-12-2010 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry McGlynn   Click Here to Email Larry McGlynn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will contact our flight insurance carriers and see if I can find an answer to this question.

I do know that Cernan is still flying and I believe he does have a 421. He had a major in-flight engine failure a little over a year ago. He showed me the photos of the damage. The starboard engine blew a piston and the rod came right out through engine necelle. It was a mess. He safely landed the plane somewhere in Alabama.

I will ask our aircraft insurance companies.

If anyone has any other questions about this subject, then let me know now and I will ask them.

gliderpilotuk
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From: London, UK
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posted 07-13-2010 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ejectr:
When we called the insurance company to set him up on our insurance, their reply: "He needs 5 hours dual instruction in the Tiger before he can solo it."
Here in the UK it's called a "type conversion" - although 5 hours sounds excessive.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 07-29-2010 12:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Timely to this discussion is the following news release issued July 28, 2010...
Gene Cernan Looks to Sennheiser's HMEC 26 Aviation Headset to Ensure Cockpit Communication Clarity

To say that Gene Cernan is an accomplished aviator is something of an understatement. An experienced NASA astronaut who co-piloted Gemini 9A, was lunar module pilot on Apollo 10 and commander of Apollo 17, Cernan knows something about the importance of communications in the cockpit. While he is still very active in flight, these days, Cernan chooses to pilot a Cessna 421 instead of a rocket. He looks to aviation headset manufacturer Sennheiser to ensure that the quality of his communication in the cockpit is without compromise.

Gene, how did your passion for flying develop?

I am a product of WWII and my passion for flying started when I was eight or ten years old. I watched all those unsung heroes out there, particularly in the Pacific, flying airplanes off of aircraft carriers. Back in those days, we didn't have any TVs like kids do now. You'd go to the movies once a week and have black and white Movietone news. That fascinated me, and that's where my passion for flying began -- I knew right then and there that that was my dream.

What role has maintaining a passion played in helping you attain your dream of being a pilot?

Well, first and foremost, you've got to love it. I do a lot of lecturing and I tell people, "If it isn't a passion, then don't do it. If you don't want to be the best there is, then get out of it, otherwise you're going to hurt somebody." When I got a call from the Navy Department saying "We want to recommend you for further evaluation to NASA," that started the ball rolling. Suddenly I was in a room with 400 of the finest, most qualified test pilots and aviators in America. Who would have ever believed it? I like to tell kids, "Don't ever count yourself out."

How important are communications in the cockpit?

Understanding communications is of the utmost importance. If it isn't clear and you miss a cue in terms of an altitude change or another piece of critical information, you can find yourself in a great deal of safety trouble. It is so important to understand what the controller is talking about and what the guy in the right seat is telling you: "Put the flaps at 30." Maybe you didn't hear him correctly and you thought he said, "The flaps are dirty."

There are so many things that can get confused if you do not have distinctively clear communications. This is why the real pros repeat back what they think they heard. You'd be surprised how many times the controller will come back and correct what you think you heard.

When did you first begin using Sennheiser aviation headsets?

I have a Cessna 421 and would fly with a hand mike and a speaker. After using my first Sennheiser headset, I didn't realize how much I had been missing and how difficult it used to be difficult to hear and understand -- not to mention how inconvenient it was -- It was a world of difference. One reason I've never used competing headsets is because they always felt like you are wearing two ten-pound earmuffs. These things were big and heavy, inconvenient and uncomfortable. I started wearing Sennheiser aviation headsets about ten years ago, and I've been wearing them ever since.

Tell me about the HMEC 26s.

I cannot tell you how much I enjoy and like the HMEC 26s. The weight, the clarity, and the reliability are all major benefits of using them, and the comfort of this headset is unsurpassed. It is very lightweight, and I can tell you -- there is nothing worse than wearing a heavy and uncomfortable headset on a flight for three or four hours. In the cockpit, you have too many other things to focus on, and the nice thing about these headsets is that you don't have to think about them. You barely even know you have them on, which is a great compliment.

One of the other great things about them is that you can swivel one of the earpieces. This is very convenient, because if I ever needed to lean over and say something in the cockpit to a grandkid or whatever, I don't have to take the entire headset off.

Tell me about the sonic quality.

It is outstanding. I have been using the HMEC 26 headset all year and communication wise, it is as good or better than anything else I've ever had. I also have a little stereo in my airplane and it comes through crisp and clear. This is a perfect device, especially when using them in a Cessna 421 -- which can be a relatively noisy environment. The noise canceling system and the clarity is absolutely second to none.

Also, since using the HMEC 26s, I've had no problem with others understanding me, whether in the cockpit or on the ground -- this is comforting. I've got to believe that the reason people hear me so clearly is because of the built in microphone technology that Sennheiser is so very well known for.

Where do aviation headsets fall in the scale of importance with respect to all the different equipment that pilots have to rely on?

They are very important. You don't want to find yourself up there -- especially in weather conditions -- with a loss or inability to communicate. If something happens and you can't talk to anybody, the first thing you reach for is the radio, not the headset. So maybe Sennheiser has done too good of a job in this respect -- the reliability is almost taken for granted. I have never had a problem with a Sennheiser headset, with the exception that I once wore out a pad from using it too much [laughs]. I use these now exclusively and won't use anything else.

Gene, do you have any closing thoughts?

I never, ever have problems with hearing or understanding others when I am in a plane using my Sennheisers. Intelligibility is the most important thing in a headset, and with Sennheiser, everything is always very clear. I never have to even think about it.

Jay Chladek
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From: Bellevue, NE, USA
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posted 07-29-2010 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ejectr:
Tell you a little story about aircraft insurance. We just picked up a new partner in our Grumman Tiger partnership. Same type of single engine, general aviation aircraft Mike Griffin flies.
Wow, small world. I had no idea Griffin flew a Tiger! From Spring 2005 to Spring 2007, I owned a Grumman AA-5 Traveler (same airframe as Tiger, less powerful engine). It was a 1975 model with the low drag LoPresti cowl on it (became standard on the Cheetah, i.e. the Traveler after a name change). I made sure to get insurance and indeed the five hour dual time requirement was there as well. But they still sent me the papers for my purchase when I said I would get the time in. So I made sure to get a couple hours of dual time and then spent the remaining 3 hours shooting as many touch and goes as I could and my check pilot/instructor signed off on it. I had no problems flying the aircraft after that. Indeed I miss my plane as it was hard having to sell it. I haven't had the funds to get back into the cockpit since.

Part of the five hour requirement I believe has to do with the Grumman Tiger's smaller cousin, the AA-1 Yankee. It got something of a reputation as a hot plane due to a higher then normal accident rate with it. The Traveler and the Tiger are essentially stretched Yankees with different wings, but they still get lumped with the Yankees in terms of reputation as you do NOT want to spin train in one as supposedly they will not come out of a spin if they enter a deep one. Indeed NASA Langley did test flights with the Yankee because the problem was apparently that bad.

As for me, the plane was fine and I loved it. I was a bit reluctant to take it into a stall as I hate stalls, but she performed rock steady in them with the controls coordinated properly. Only minor quibble was while the book said her ceiling was 13,500, if you climbed past 6,000 feet, she would take a LONG time to get to my usual cruising altitude of 9,500 or 10,500 feet. Once she got there though, it was smooth sailing in turbulence free air (I don't like putzing around in low air because of thermal turbulence).

As for twins, there is one out there that has no adverse engine out conditions since the engines are in line with one another in a push/pull configuration, it is the Cessna 336 Skymaster. I imagine she would climb like a slug on one engine though.

As for experienced pilots, that also isn't necessarily a replacement for proper instruction in a specific plane. As such, with each new (to me) plane I've flown, I've made sure to get some dual time on it with somebody who is experienced with it to figure out the quirks. I heard the story once of a very experienced pilot who joined an air club with I believe a Cessna 182RG (retractable gear). They let him join without a check ride since he had a lot of experience in the military and civilian ranks on much higher performance aircraft. Well, to make a long story short, he managed to plop the plane in a belly landing since he didn't drop the gear. His reason was an alarm in the cockpit kept distracting him from putting the gear down. Turns out it was an alarm that was trying to TELL him to put the gear down at that speed range and flap configuration.

All times are CT (US)

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