|
Author
|
Topic: Cosmonaut Vladimir Komarov (Soyuz 1) remains
|
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
|
posted 11-26-2008 02:37 PM
   
Sometimes Google turns with up something you were not prepared for; this is a disturbing picture. But is this photo genuine and does it really show Vladimir Komarov's burnt remains in an open coffin? I can't imagine the Soviets would ever release something like this. |
ColinBurgess
Member Posts: 2031
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
|
posted 11-26-2008 02:52 PM
Rex Hall and I came across this photo while researching our soon-to-be-released book "The First Soviet Cosmonaut Team" but we mutually decided it was way too disturbing and ghastly to publish. Given the identities of the people gathered around the remains, we feel it is exactly what the photo is said to represent. But we do not regret at all our decision to refrain from publishing this rather horrifying image. |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1751
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
|
posted 11-26-2008 06:43 PM
An exercise in extremely good taste, Colin. |
dom
Member Posts: 855
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
|
posted 11-27-2008 06:06 AM
It's amazing that this disturbing picture is out there but in what context was it originally released? I've seen a very similar Novosti press photo but thankfully someone is standing in front of Komarov's remains. Hopefully we have never see photographs of the Apollo 1 crew, the Challenger astronauts or poor Bondarenko... |
1202 Alarm
Member Posts: 436
From: Switzerland & France
Registered: Nov 2003
|
posted 11-27-2008 09:53 AM
For me, the most amazing thing is that Komarov is 'presented' that way in the first place. While there's a lot of dignity to show a dead body (the pope, Martin Luther King, etc.) for those who loved him to say a last goodbye and a prayer, where's the dignity here?These 'remains' are more the kind of sequence we would have in a comedy movie, it's just ridiculous, what went through the mind of the guy in charge of such a ceremony? Imagine the family, how can you mourn a loved one, faced with a freaky 'thing' like that? Absurd, silly... |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 11-27-2008 10:37 AM
I would like to know the context of this photo before judging it too harshly. We don't see the family in attendance here. Nor do the remains appear to be displayed in a coffin, but seem to be laid out on a table. I am curious if this was part of a military ceremony that took place shortly after the accident (before the remains could be examined fully and/or prepared for enclosure in a coffin), where only his comrades attended... and not his close (non-military) friends and family. This doesn't appear to be a funeral. I would suspect that a more proper display was later created for the family... most likely a closed coffin. Death can often be a gruesome thing, but was a daily reality to the men in this photo. What seems shocking to the average person probably served as a brutal reminder to these men of the dangerous profession they engaged in. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1047
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
|
posted 11-27-2008 11:17 AM
Well, funeral with open coffin is part of Russian culture.
|
dom
Member Posts: 855
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
|
posted 11-27-2008 11:58 AM
I think these paragraphs in the 'Kamanin Diaries 1967-68' (General Kamanin is on the right adjusting his tie) give the context of when the picture was taken: Kamanin returned to the place of the accident and ordered a group of doctors to remove Komarov's body from the ship's wreckage...at 21.45 (Moscow time) Komarov's remains were placed aboard the II-18 airplane. Ten minutess before departure an An-12 arrived from the cosmodrome with General Kuznetsov and the Soyuz-2 prime and back-up cosmonauts, who would accompany their perished colleague to Moscow...Komarov's remains were transferred to the morgue of the Burdenko hospital in Moscow, allowing doctors to write an official report on the cause of death. Subsequently the remains were cremated and an urn with the ashes was placed in the central House of the Soviet Army later that day were endless line of people came to pay their respects. The following day Komarov's ashes were interred in the Kremlin Wall. |
Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
|
posted 11-27-2008 04:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
I would suspect that a more proper display was later created for the family... most likely a closed coffin.
Following the autopsy, his remains were hastily cremated for a burial in the Kremlin Wall. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 11-27-2008 09:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Dixon:
Following the autopsy, his remains were hastily cremated for a burial in the Kremlin Wall.
Thanks for the info. At least that shows his remains likely weren't put on display in the manner seen in the photograph. Perhaps this photo came from the time of the autopsy. |
tegwilym
Member Posts: 2331
From: Sturgeon Bay, WI
Registered: Jan 2000
|
posted 11-28-2008 02:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dom:
Hopefully we have never see photographs of the Apollo 1 crew, the Challenger astronauts or poor Bondarenko...
There was a photo from Apollo 1 that went around a while back. Just suits no bodies. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
|
posted 11-28-2008 07:46 PM
Okay, no offense to anyone, but you can't really make out what exactly the remains are. Are all of you 100% sure these are actually Komarov's remains? |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
|
posted 11-29-2008 01:32 AM
I did not click on the disturbing photo. While I have to agree with Carmelo that an open coffin is part of the Russian culture (I lived in Florence for a few years), I appalud Colin for his decision not to publish the photograph. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. |
jasonelam
Member Posts: 691
From: Monticello, KY USA
Registered: Mar 2007
|
posted 11-29-2008 06:29 AM
According to the Kamanin diaries, the remains of Komarov were an irregular lump 30 cm by 80 cm. It furthermore stated that the remains were to be photographed before an autopsy was to be completed. However, this does not prove that the photo is of what it states. Colin, I have to totally agree with you on the decision not to publish the photograph. It is in much the same way that we are fortunate that there are not pictures of the Apollo 1, Challenger or Columbia crews post-mortem. The suit images alone from Apollo 1 are disturbing enough that they should never have been released. This picture is along the same lines as JFK's autopsy photos or the OJ Simpson murder photos and shows a morbid curiosity that some people have involving death, as if to say we cant believe someone died until we see a dead body or remains. The website that published the photo apparently did so for shock value, since their photo montage of the space race is flawed with factual errors and overloaded with useless information. I think that they need to remove the picture out of respect for the family. This is not a space history "find", if you will, but rather one's sick, morbid curiosity that somehow got on the web. |
ea757grrl
Member Posts: 729
From: South Carolina
Registered: Jul 2006
|
posted 11-29-2008 08:06 AM
My plaudits as well to Colin for deciding not to publish the photos. There's not only a good taste issue here, but I've also thought that showing something that gruesome is overkill anyway. I have no desire to see, for example, the remains of the Apollo 1 astronauts, or the pic of the burned suits; to me, the pictures of the burned-out cockpit have spoken plenty. Same deal for the pictures of Challenger after the breakup, or the remains of Columbia laid out for reconstruction.In addition, when pictures showing the gruesome aftermath of any disaster are published, it's the families I feel worst for. A few years ago a website owner got hold of the autopsy photos of a couple of racers who were killed at Daytona in 1994 and published them. I still remember the anguished response one newspaper published after the daughter of one driver did a web search and came across the pictures of her father's post-mortem. The website owner (who also tried, and failed, to get Dale Earnhardt's autopsy photos) claimed he was doing it in the name of "free speech" and "open records," but to a lot of folks it seemed like something else was at work. To this day, you can't do a Google image search on either driver without risking coming across those disturbing pictures. This guy ruined it for everyone. It is completely possible to convey the power, fury and ruthlessness of a horrific event while still retaining some kind of restraint and dignity. Good call to Colin and Rex for remembering that. |
dom
Member Posts: 855
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
|
posted 11-29-2008 04:09 PM
The website containing this image seems to be marketing photographs from official press agencies.I can only assume this was released by the Novosti agency in the immediate post-USSR era in the early 1990s when much sensationalist material regarding 'Soviet disasters' was available for the right price? The famous movie film of the dead Soyuz 11 cosmonauts being frantically worked on by doctors also emerged around that time too. Although very sad, that scene wasn't as disturbing as this new photograph... |
ColinBurgess
Member Posts: 2031
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
|
posted 11-30-2008 05:15 AM
Don't get me wrong - my curiosity is every bit as strong as most other people on this forum, and I have to admit I was quite intrigued - if somewhat aghast - when I first saw this photo. But Rex and I have always had a lot of respect for these cosmonauts and their accomplishments, and out of that respect we both very quickly decided that this was one photograph we would not want in our book. We just deemed it not suitable, as well as disrespectful to Komarov's memory. |
Jay Gallentine
Member Posts: 287
From: Shorewood, MN, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
|
posted 11-30-2008 12:42 PM
Colin, high marks for skipping over this photograph. I don't think that the inclusion of it would have served any purpose. We don't learn anything new about the tragedy from studying it. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1587
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
|
posted 12-01-2008 07:47 AM
I applaud your decision not to include the photo. From a space enthusiasts' point of view, it is a shame to see it at all. I'm not too happy about the audio of the Apollo 1 fire being out there either. Sadly I am sure that there are similiar photos of U.S, astronauts out there. It is only a matter of time until someone will post them. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
|
posted 12-02-2008 07:59 PM
There are many sides to an issue. In one sense it is educational, but not really necessary to see at all. The attitude of many cosmonauts in those days probably was one of keeping feelings in check as almost all were military and a few of them were veterans of WW2 (and even the civilians had experienced some horrors as their country was invaded during the "Great Patriotic War"). As such, a few of these guys had probably already seen some pretty nasty stuff. Hence the reaction or lack of it.Based on what I had read about Soyuz 1, it was a pretty high speed impact and there was a smoldering fire by the time the recovery crews arrived, so they had a very hard time even identifying what was Komarov and what was the Soyuz. Apollo 1 by comparison was tame as Stu Roosa explained in his interview on the "Moonshot" documentary on PBS (He said most of their suits were still white. They didn't look in and see charred bodies). This is a hard business as the by-product of exploring space is some very nasty ways to potentially die and a few of them usually result in something not recognizeable as a human body. Of course, pilots and those in aviation tend to understand that a bit more then the average person since aviation accidents can result in similar situations. I imagine the plane crash that claimed Gagarin didn't leave much either, although it appears there was a funeral procession with a coffin for that one. Concerning what is tasteful to print and what isn't is not always an easy decision. I've had similar thoughts to consider for my book since Soyuz 11 is a big topic of the early space station efforts (which I am writing about in my Outward Odyssey title). I probably will make mention of the attempts to perform CPR on the bodies as I have seen that footage. To me it is educational in that sense as it showcases the attempts by the recovery crews to do something when nothing could be done. It helps to convey the sense of hopelessness where one thinks more can be done when it can't. But it also helps put into perspective some of the Soviet/Russian attitudes towards death as well. I also saw a movie talking about Salyut 1 and it opened with a brief history of the hardships and loss of life endured by explorers of the sea, ice and the air in some of the more famous events in Russian history and how they still continued to explore in the wake of those losses. |
advertisement