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Author Topic:   R&R Enterprises June 2008 auction
Michael
Member

Posts: 309
From: Brooklyn New York
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 06-04-2008 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael   Click Here to Email Michael     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are these authentic? Just asking,
Mike

gliderpilotuk
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Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 06-05-2008 07:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMO yes to both.

Paul

taneal1
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Posts: 230
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 06-11-2008 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for taneal1   Click Here to Email taneal1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Armstrong lot #447

This appears authentic to me, but Neil signatures always need as much verification as possible.

TIA

divemaster
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Posts: 1376
From: ridgefield, ct
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-11-2008 07:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for divemaster   Click Here to Email divemaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
who is now doing their space authenticating?

machbusterman
Member

Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004

posted 06-12-2008 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for machbusterman   Click Here to Email machbusterman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some guy called P O T Luck I believe .

b55er
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Posts: 30
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: Jun 2007

posted 06-13-2008 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b55er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's what I was afraid of.

mikeh
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Posts: 147
From:
Registered: Feb 2008

posted 06-18-2008 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by divemaster:
who is now doing their space authenticating?
This is the response I received from R&R, when asked who is doing the Space/Av authentication, and to provide bios of their credentials in the field.

Of note - both of the authenticators described below are well-known, but generalists, not specialists with proven track records in Space/Av authentication.

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your question! Although previous R&R space authenticator Scott Cornish is no longer with us, we are more than confident that every item listed in our auctions are 100% authentic. Every space item is approved by R&R authenticators Bob Eaton and Bill White, who have a combined experience of over 60 years in the autograph field.

Bob Eaton maintains a trustworthy name in autographs, as member of the Manuscript Society, the UACC, and chosen specifically for his knowledge to be part of the world renowned PSA/DNA authentication team. Bill White has published several in-depth studies developed into published, award-winning articles earning him a reputation as a trusted authenticator. All of our items are accompanied by an R&R Lifetime Guarantee Certificate of Authenticity, which further ensures our dedication to offering authentic – and only authentic - material.

I hope this has helped to answer any questions you may have regarding our space items. If I can be of any further assistance please feel free to contact me anytime.

atpowell
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Posts: 45
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 06-19-2008 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for atpowell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just saw the results of the R&R Auction - I am pretty excited - I think I got good deal - I won lot 438 - "Flown 4” Apollo-Soyuz flight-flown patch, flown aboard the Apollo capsule in Tom Stafford’s personal preference kit, during the July 1975 mission. Patch is affixed to an 8.5 x 11 letter of provenance from 1990 on Stafford's stationary, signed at the conclusion by Stafford".

Won this for $636! Was I lucky here, or did I miss something??

Thanks!
- Albrecht

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-19-2008 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Concerning R&R's current authentications of space material;

While I have nothing against Bob Eaton and Bill White, their statement that, "every item listed in our auctions are 100% authentic and that every space item is approved by R&R authenticators Bob Eaton and Bill White, who have a combined expereince of over 60 years in the autograph field..." is not always true.

Their current autograph #334 catalog does indeed contain bogus signatures. For instance, Lot #414 has a Schirra secretarial, and a bad one at that, in my opinion. Yes, the Eisele is an autopen and the Cunningham is genuine, but not the Schirra! Most experienced space collectors would easily spot this error.

Lot# 416 contains a Borman autopen and there is another autopen, of Charlie Walker, on the shuttle signed 41-D crew picture (#460). Some of the Armstrong material needs to be checked carefully along with another deceased astronaut lot.

The autopen of Walker is quite obvious, if of course, an authenticator truly knows his space material.

b55er
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Posts: 30
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: Jun 2007

posted 06-19-2008 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b55er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ken,

Thank you for your opinions on the R&R auction.

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of #442? I did bid $700 early on, but decided not to pursue winning it.

I ask because to my eye, it looks good. But on the other hand, I've been proven wrong many times and I no longer trust my judgement on these things.

Regards,
B5

SpaceSteve
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Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 06-19-2008 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceSteve   Click Here to Email SpaceSteve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding lot #519, the Alan Shepard signed 8x10 on the moon, is the price it went for ($1,293) "normal"?

It just seems to me that this is an astronomical (no pun intended) price. I was thinking it would go for around $500-$600.

Steve

DSeuss5490
Member

Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 06-19-2008 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DSeuss5490   Click Here to Email DSeuss5490     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by atpowell:
Won this for $636! Was I lucky here, or did I miss something??
Yes, the 20% premium.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 06-19-2008 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceSteve:
Regarding lot #519, the Alan Shepard signed 8x10 on the moon, is the price it went for ($1,293) "normal"?

$500-600 seemed to be the going price a few years ago. $700-1000 seems to be most recent trend.

$1300 is perhaps a bit high, but this does appear to be one of those items that is only increasing in value over time. Maybe $1300 will seem like a bargain in another year or two.

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-19-2008 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
B5 -- Armstrong material will always be in some question as the current marketplace is full of bogus signatures of the "first man."

If an Armstrong lot has hardly no provided solid background or provenance included with it, in this day and age, I would caution spending big bucks on it unless you're completely satisfied with the piece. Yes, there are good and authentic Armstrong signatures on the market today, however, there is a good chance that perhaps the majority of Armstrong autographs being offered on ebay, many auction companies, and others are indeed bogus attempts. For B5, yes, the lot does appear to be genuine--however--keep in mind that there are some extremely good forgers out there that know a historic picture like this, with Neil's famous "first words" at the bottom of it would definitely fetch big bucks! Of course, having any provenance on some good Armstrong pieces may indeed be impossible to provide--but--I can honestly tell you that from my own Armstrong collection of many different signature pieces, believe it or not, I can provide the necessary background information and any/all provenance related to it (i.e. when was it acquired and how, or by whom, did it belong to a famous space personality, and so on). Before purchasing an Armstrong lot, just be sure to do all the necessary homework and background checks that are possible. If there is hardly nothing or very little to go on, a red flag should go up, but it doesn't necessarily mean the signature is a forgery. You must be completely satisfied with it would be my advice before any money is going for such a highly-desirable pioneer astronaut signature these days.

b55er
Member

Posts: 30
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: Jun 2007

posted 06-20-2008 02:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b55er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ken,

Thank you for your insight. My initial concern was the "a" as in "one small step for a man". I haven't seen older material include this. I like the appeal of this piece, but as you said, I could not feel absolutely comfortable with it. My gut instinct was to pass.

As a noob here, I appreciate the helpful critiquing of astro stuff from experienced cS members.

Regards,
B5

robsouth
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Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 06-20-2008 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for robsouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd be grateful if the following three autographs could be appraised, I've been after an Irwin signature for awhile now and the Armstrong and Shepard signatures are also tempting.

andrewcli
Member

Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 06-20-2008 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for andrewcli   Click Here to Email andrewcli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am embarrassed to say that I was the one who placed the initial bid on the Apollo 7 cover. I guess that I need new glasses. After reading Ken's comment, I sent an email to R&R yesterday and received the following reply:
Thank you for sharing your concerns regarding lot 414 (Apollo 7 Commemorative Cover) that you won in our June 334 auction. We have evaluated the item and agree that the Schirra signature cannot be supported as authentic. Inclusion of this item in the June auction was in error. While we strive to be 100% accurate on all evaluations, an occasional mistake can be made. Should it happen, we accept full responsibility and take whatever measures necessary to rectify the matter regardless of time elapsed between the item’s purchase and recognition of the problem. We stand by our word and our offer of a lifetime money-back guarantee on authenticity. It is our concern for authenticity, and assuring our customers of that concern, that has brought us to the point of our 334th consecutive monthly catalog. As a new bidder with R&R, we welcome the opportunity to gain your trust and respect for both the items we represent at auction and our dedication to providing excellent customer service.

Andrew, your credit card was charged for your purchase but has since been credited for the full amount. We apologize for any inconvenience and appreciate that you brought the matter to our attention. Our lines of communication are always open and you are invited to use them. Please feel free to contact me should you have any further questions.

Things do slip through the cracks every so often, but at least they are willing to admit their mistakes and correct the problem as quickly as possible.

Thank you R&R and thank you Ken!

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-20-2008 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For Andrew -- Glad to be of help with the Apollo 7 launch cover and good to hear R&R supported us on the Schirra secretarial that resulted in a refund for you.

For robsouth -- To answer your questions, see my prior post concerning Armstrong material; both the Irwin and Shepard signed books are authentic, however, if you're looking for similar pieces with perhaps lower asking prices, email me off list.

mmmoo
Member

Posts: 551
From: London, England
Registered: May 2001

posted 07-03-2008 06:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mmmoo   Click Here to Email mmmoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
If an Armstrong lot has hardly no provided solid background or provenance included with it, in this day and age, I would caution spending big bucks on it unless you're completely satisfied with the piece.
Hi Ken, I have now found out a bit more history behind this Armstrong (Lot #441 from June 08).

RR have just got back to me saying that it came from a British Collector of in-person signatures. Who has consigned to RR many times before, all of his other lots have the same inscription, "To Gerald" Do you think this makes the Armstrong lean more to being good?

Thanks
Mike

robsouth
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Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-03-2008 06:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robsouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
...with Neil's famous "first words" at the bottom of it would definitely fetch big bucks!
I read somewhere that Armstrong has never signed his autograph and used the words, "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind".

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 07-03-2008 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Armstrong categorically denounces any such item as a fake. "I know that to be false, because I have never, ever quoted myself. From day one, I never did that. So it doesn't exist anywhere. Not for my mom, not for the Smithsonian, not for anybody -- there is not one anywhere. Not in quarantine or any other time. I never did one."

— Neil Armstrong, on inscribing his "one small step" quote, from "First Man" by James Hansen
Of course, that doesn't apply to pieces such as the recent example from R&R, where the inscription has been printed rather than handwritten by Armstrong...

mikeh
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Posts: 147
From:
Registered: Feb 2008

posted 07-04-2008 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On item 415 isn't it odd that Lovell would incorrectly quote himself, signing... "Houston, we have a problem, James Lovell, Apollo 13 CDR"?

machbusterman
Member

Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004

posted 07-04-2008 02:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for machbusterman   Click Here to Email machbusterman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mikeh:
On item 415 isn't it odd that Lovell would incorrectly quote himself, signing... "Houston, we have a problem, James Lovell, Apollo 13 CDR"?


There were many people getting the exact same inscription at Autographica last year although I requested the "correct" quote... not the Apollo 13 movie version.

- Derek

mikeh
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From:
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posted 07-04-2008 09:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Beautiful collection of quotes Derek!

machbusterman
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Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
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posted 07-05-2008 02:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for machbusterman   Click Here to Email machbusterman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks very much Mike!

DSeuss5490
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Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 07-07-2008 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DSeuss5490   Click Here to Email DSeuss5490     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In regards to Armstrong denying having written and signed his famous quote, I recall a NA handwritten signed quote on a flight plan page that wase offered on eBay several years ago. I think the asking price was around 100K? There was an interesting collectSPACE discussion regarding this item as well. I think the consensus was that it was legitimate and genuine. I still have the photo of the signed page and I doubt that it is a forgery. I also know of a signed Ap-11 beta emblem in a house in Columbus, Ohio that bears a lengthy NA inscription, including the famous quote. I saw the item and I have no reason to believe it is not genuine. In fact, the owner used to golf with NA and keeps this treasure in a $1.00 frame in the basement rec room. On the back is glued a photo from September, 1969 of Armstrong and the owner holding this signed item. I tried to buy this about 10 years ago, but the owner wasn't ready to part with it. The problem, however, is that such an item is perhaps now worthless??

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 07-07-2008 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DSeuss5490:
In regards to Armstrong denying having written and signed his famous quote, I recall a NA handwritten signed quote on a flight plan page that was offered on eBay several years ago.
Armstrong's comments in "First Man" were in direct response to the piece you describe (hence the reference to quarantine), thus even if it was once believed to be authentic, it is no longer...

mjanovec
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Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 07-07-2008 10:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Armstrong's comments in "First Man" were in direct response to the piece you describe (hence the reference to quarantine), thus even if it was once believed to be authentic, it is no longer...

I would think that any effort to determine authenticity on this piece would have to be largely centered on authenticating the writing on it's own merits, not relying directly solely on Armstrong's own word.

While I don't want to claim Armstrong is stretching the truth, it's quite possible he doesn't remember signing such a piece...or perhaps he prefers not to remember signing such a piece if it means it would turn a very valuable item into something of very little value. It's no secret he has a distaste towards the autograph market out there and I can imagine him taking whatever opportunity available to lessen the value of pieces such as these...especially any piece advertised for $100k.

robsouth
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Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-08-2008 05:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robsouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If Armstrong has a dislike for autograph dealers and the high prices on his autographs then shouldn't he sit down and sign a whole load of photos thus flooding the market. By stopping signing his autograph he has single handedly made the price skyrocket!

capoetc
Member

Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 07-08-2008 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
If Armstrong has a dislike for autograph dealers and the high prices on his autographs then shouldn't he sit down and sign a whole load of photos thus flooding the market. By stopping signing his autograph he has single handedly made the price skyrocket!

That's one take on it. You could make an argument that he would have to "flood the market" with tens of thousands of signed lithos, etc, in order to bring the price down since the demand for his autograph globally far exceeds that of any other member of the NASA space program.

He has simply chosen to step away.

------------------
John Capobianco
Camden DE

robsouth
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Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-08-2008 08:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robsouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To get an insight into what Armstrong has to put up with and the level of attention he gets at public events then read the passage in, 'Moondust' about the author's encounter with him. He's likened to a prey being stalked by the crowd around him hanging on his every word. For a private person, not keen on public speaking it must he a real effort to attend any of these public shows.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 07-08-2008 11:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If Neil were to suddenly start signing tens of thousands of lithos, I think it would create the opposite affect...at least in the short term. There would be a feeding frenzy of collectors/dealers wanting to get the new signatures. The question would be whether Neil's arm could hold out longer than the feeding frenzy. I suspect he doesn't care to test it...

Look at it this way... John Glenn has signed for free for decades now. Yet he still signs large volumes of items and the requests keep on pouring in. They will continue to pour in until Glenn is no longer able or willing to sign anymore. The same problem would exist for Armstrong, only an order of magnitude worse... since his signature is viewed as a valuable commodity.

Plus, I think Neil is enjoying his retirement from autographing too much to consider coming out of retirement.

capoetc
Member

Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 07-08-2008 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Probably the only way it would make any sense for Armstrong to do a commercial signing would be to make the price absolutely ridiculously high to keep the volume "manageable".

Say, $5,000 each, WSS litho only, no crew completions, inscribed to the buyer.

There would still be takers, and it would raise a bunch of money for whatever charity. Still ... I don't see it happening.

------------------
John Capobianco
Camden DE

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 07-08-2008 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
Say, $5,000 each, WSS litho only, no crew completions, inscribed to the buyer.

It would never happen for two reasons:

1. Armstrong has a distaste for the autograph market. Selling his signature for $5000, even for charity, would go against his stated position on autographs.

2. A $5000 signing would likely attract bad publicity. Sure, the charity nature of the signing would deflect some of that, but he would still take a lot of heat for it...especially from collectors who can't afford those prices. After all, if you already have $5000 burning a hole in your pocket, finding a nice Armstrong signature for that price isn't all that hard to do.

capoetc
Member

Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 07-08-2008 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
It would never happen ....

Which is why I said, "Still ... I don't see it happening."

------------------
John Capobianco
Camden DE

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