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  Space Operations Inc. Gemini-derived Eclipse (Page 2)

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Author Topic:   Space Operations Inc. Gemini-derived Eclipse
Jay Chladek
Member

Posts: 2211
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 07-31-2012 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, I stand corrected. But I seriously doubt any company who is involved in supplying boosters for US based space launch services, be it ULA or SpaceX, is going to sign over a rocket to such an endeavor based on what little I am reading.

For one thing, their pads would have to be modified to handle manned spacecraft checkout at the pad since it isn't just a satellite payload. Then you've got the potential financial and liability risks associated with such a partnership versus the potential for not much reward. Point being, I still don't see it happening.

Sure, man rating a booster may be an arbitrary NASA requirement. But insurance backers, let alone financial backers, want assurances that their investment isn't going to blow up in their face.

star61
Member

Posts: 258
From: Bristol UK
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 08-02-2012 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for star61   Click Here to Email star61     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I really do hate to be negative. I support all "rocket men and women" who have the same desires as all of us who believe in human spaceflight. But from the first this particular project struck me as either a hoax or a badly thought out pie in the sky dream.

I would just refer anyone to the Warbird scene for an example of how hard it is to fly legacy equipment in whole or partially. Think of the WWII resources that enabled one B-24 to roll off the line every hour, in comparison with getting just ONE B-24 in the air today. Maybe a better comparison is a Spitfire or Mustang as Mike Collins and others referred to Gemini as a hotrod.

Again, I have never heard of any of these airframes in original or updated state flying in a short period from project start. The two-thirds MK-26 Spitfire which was wholly new had to go through all the same tests as any new design. So a Gemini "shell" is surely all new?

Again with all due respect to the project and its people...are you for real? The details of this devil are tricky and many and I see no evidence of real workable solutions.

bcrussell
Member

Posts: 69
From: Madison, AL. USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 08-13-2012 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bcrussell   Click Here to Email bcrussell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Space Operations Inc. was one of seven companies to respond to the NASA CCiCap RFP. We will post it on this site if at least 20 users respond that they want to see it.

bcrussell
Member

Posts: 69
From: Madison, AL. USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 09-03-2012 08:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bcrussell   Click Here to Email bcrussell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
More video on our project with astronauts' opinions, detailed schematics and more information.

SpaceOps has NOT signed a contract with SpaceX or ULA for a rocket booster. The image in the slide presentation is just meant to show that these boosters COULD be used to launch the ECLIPSE into orbit.

SpaceAholic
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Posts: 3023
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 09-03-2012 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Q4 2013 launch? Space Ops should be cutting metal by now... any photos of the flight vehicle under construction?

bcrussell
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Posts: 69
From: Madison, AL. USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 09-03-2012 10:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bcrussell   Click Here to Email bcrussell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not yet, however we are going to start a fundraising effort Sep. 13th if you want to help, on kickstarter. By the way, when the contract was first signed back in Apr. 1963, six months later Gemini 1 was completed, from scratch!

SpaceAholic
Member

Posts: 3023
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 09-03-2012 11:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Gemini contract was signed in late 1961, over 2 years prior to its first 1964 test flight.

star61
Member

Posts: 258
From: Bristol UK
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 09-03-2012 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for star61   Click Here to Email star61     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With almost unlimited federal money and a major aerospace contractor!

garymilgrom
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Posts: 1571
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 09-03-2012 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If memory serves Gemini was originally budgeted at $700 million but eventually cost $1.2 billion, to which NASA and Congress said okay.

How would Space Ops deal with a 45% budget shortfall?

bcrussell
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Posts: 69
From: Madison, AL. USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 09-03-2012 04:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bcrussell   Click Here to Email bcrussell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, you are talking about an entire program that had 12 missions. We have been working on the cost estimate for the ECLIPSE for several weeks now and it will be less than $40M. The reason for this is that all the R&D has already been done. This includes the cost of all the new systems. And, of course, if we use the F9, we all know that is $55M.

Jay Chladek
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Posts: 2211
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 09-04-2012 04:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now what is your definition of "R&D"? Is it the old Gemini data? Just because you might have plans and windtunnel data from the legacy vehicle does not mean that a new vehicle based on it will perform exactly the same.

By R&D, have you guys done any work on supply of raw materials? Can you get the alloys you need? Do you have the manufacturing capability to machine the required parts? Do you have skilled artisans and technicians to make the required assemblies? Do they have to learn to use materials they have never used before?

Even Burt Rutan had a skilled group of guys who knew how to work with composites and experience on other aircraft before starting work on SpaceShip One and White Knight. A good percentage of the "R&D" on that project was the knowledge gained building previous vehicles to help minimize the new equipment that had to be developed. McDonnell corp. had that in the Gemini program with aircraft construction going back to the late 1940s and working on Mercury since 1958 or so. If they didn't have that, I doubt Gemini would have flown as soon as it did.

garymilgrom
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Posts: 1571
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 09-04-2012 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sir; SpaceOps seems to imply if a program costs X and flies 12 times the cost of each flight is 1/12 X. But that's not how large engineering programs are budgeted. Most of the money is spent up front, before the first flight.

Look at Apollo. From the book "Doing the Impossible," George Mueller tells that the Saturn production line was shut down in 1967 (or '68 after a small budget extension), years before the first flight flew.

R&D plus construction costs are massive up front costs. They are not appropriated equally among all flights using similar technologies.

Finally you say your budget is "less than 40 million", but if you use the Falcon 9 "we all know that is $55M." Does that mean your budget is $40, $55 or $95 million?

Jim Behling
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Posts: 537
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 09-04-2012 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bcrussell:
if we use the F9, we all know that is $55M.
Not true. You haven't accounted for unique mods that your spacecraft will need. Same goes for pad mods for ingress and egress and spacecraft cooling

bcrussell
Member

Posts: 69
From: Madison, AL. USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 09-04-2012 09:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bcrussell   Click Here to Email bcrussell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glad to see all the interest. Don't have time to post anymore this week. Too busy working on the program. Hope to see you all at the launch.

Tonyq
Member

Posts: 150
From: UK
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 09-04-2012 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tonyq   Click Here to Email Tonyq     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought all this sounded very familiar: Americans in Orbit-50 Years (AIO-50)

star61
Member

Posts: 258
From: Bristol UK
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 09-04-2012 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for star61   Click Here to Email star61     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Four years on and only now been working on a budget for "the last few weeks"! Seriously? All I have seen is a YouTube PowerPoint and some drawings.

I previously said I hate to be negative but sorry guys this is not serious and won't happen. There seems to be no understanding of the industry or the realities of building any kind of spacecraft, left alone a 50 year old relic.

As was previously said, I expect to come back to this in 2 years and see no change.

bcrussell
Member

Posts: 69
From: Madison, AL. USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 09-10-2012 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bcrussell   Click Here to Email bcrussell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Space Operations new website is now up.

garymilgrom
Member

Posts: 1571
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 09-10-2012 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Note the PDF of your business plan leads to a 404 Error - Page Not Found.

In the media section you say: The company plans a test launch on Febuary 20, 2012, with a regular flight schedule beginning in late 2012 or early 2013.

I would like to know how these plans are progressing. Thank you.

Also you now show a spacecraft with three equipment modules. Is this the definitive version?

spaceops3

bcrussell
Member

Posts: 69
From: Madison, AL. USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 09-10-2012 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bcrussell   Click Here to Email bcrussell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That information was from our first press release back in Feb. 2011. We were unable to secure funding so that schedule was not possible. We WILL NOT publish any future launch schedule until funding is in place. Sorry about the confusion.

Victor Johnson
New Member

Posts: 3
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Nov 2012

posted 11-28-2012 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Victor Johnson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We have the proven technology to put the USA back in space TODAY! As the space program moves to the private sector, America will need Space Operations' "space truck" to handle the needs of the private sector as they push us, America, back into space. It's the beginning of a new era that will have tremendous impact on our economy and our technology - and we need it. So, click here and learn more about how Space Operations Inc. will take the USA back in space TODAY!

garymilgrom
Member

Posts: 1571
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 11-28-2012 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Victor I don't understand a few things. Nearly two years ago this company announced orbital operations beginning this year. Now you're looking for 98 million dollars to start the project? As an investor looking at a business plan that sounds like management does not have a good handle on planning.

Next, on your website you say your vehicle will be able to refuel satellites. I understand how important this is, but I don't know of any current satellite that was designed for on-orbit refueling. Aren't you talking about servicing the next generation of satellites - if they're built?

Finally is the resurrection of the Rogallo Wing landing concept. In the 60's with virtually unlimited funding the top engineers in this country could not get that to work. You are operating on a shoestring budget so I wonder who will engineer and test this solution that NASA found so elusive.

Thank you.

Jay Chladek
Member

Posts: 2211
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 11-28-2012 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regardless of whether a hypothetical Gemini based vehicle can refuel satellites or not, the vast majority of satellites in Earth orbit sit higher than LEO. Not even an original Gemini could get much higher than LEO without docking with an Agena to utilize its rocket engine. So unless one can get the craft higher, or come up with a space tug capability to truck a satellite lower to dock, refuel and take it back up to its original orbit, this whole concept seems like nothing more than extremely wishful thinking based on that limitation alone.

Victor Johnson
New Member

Posts: 3
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Nov 2012

posted 11-28-2012 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Victor Johnson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Space Operations Inc. Nov. 12 press release:

Be a part of the first private orbital crew flight! Click here.


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