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  Debunking the myth Gagarin was not first (Page 2)

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Author Topic:   Debunking the myth Gagarin was not first
328KF
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posted 10-29-2010 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 328KF   Click Here to Email 328KF     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Procter:
Came across this recently. Anyone seen it? What a pile of...
Well there's two minutes of my life I wish I had back...

Kocmoc
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posted 11-01-2010 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kocmoc   Click Here to Email Kocmoc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To diffuse the myth of Gagarin not being the first, let me remind you all that the American listening stations in Turkey recorded all telemetry from soviet launches since Laika. As this was common knowledge, there was no reason that the US would not have revealed a failed launch or loss of life. Such an announcement would not have revealed strategic "sources and methods" that revealing the Corona images of the failed N-1 launches would have.

On the IAF/FAI front, I would also like to remind you all that this is a sports federation that is governed by its international membership, which included the USSR. And on the question of Gagarin's orbit, the Earth had rotated more than 1000 miles (close to 1500) while he was in orbit, therefore he did complete an entire orbit, his launch location had moved to the East.

------------------
Cathleen S. Lewis

FFrench
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posted 11-15-2010 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kocmoc:
And on the question of Gagarin's orbit, the Earth had rotated more than 1000 miles (close to 1500) while he was in orbit, therefore he did complete an entire orbit, his launch location had moved to the East.
That is an intriguing statement, and makes me wonder - how are LEO orbits officially measured (if there is any official consensus), and has there always been an accepted way of doing so? Are they relative to the ground passed over, or judged on their own distance and height above the surface?

With Gagarin, I believe it is somewhat moot, as he attained orbital speed, and decelerated from it after almost an entire orbit relative to his starting point. But it is intriguing...

Michael1976
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posted 02-11-2012 12:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael1976   Click Here to Email Michael1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So I'm watching a show on the Science Channel about two Italian radio operators that picked up early Russian space communications in the 60's. They recorded everything.

So the first was of Sputnik, second of the dog that died during re-entry. Both confirmed. Then it gets interesting.

They say they recorded a mission with a SOS communication. Then another one with a dying heartbeat years before Gagarin. Then the craziest one was of a Russian female getting burned in her craft on re-entry a month or two after Gagarin. This one sounded spot on.

Wanted to get thoughts. I guess it is known as the Torre Bert or brothers Achille and Giovanni Judica-Cordiglia.

Editor's note: Threads merged.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 02-11-2012 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As noted earlier in this thread, the Judica-Cordiglia brothers have made claims that can and have been debunked simply by the physics of radio propagation.

Wikipedia has a brief but good summary of some of the other problems with the brothers' recordings.

Since the 1960s critical analysis of the recordings has cast doubt on their provenance. For instance, audio transcripts reveal that all the cosmonauts, who were supposed to be Soviet air force pilots did not follow standard communication protocols, such as identifying themselves when speaking or using the correct technical terminology.

Likewise all the recordings contain disjointed sentences and grammatical errors that would have not been made by well-educated, Russian native speakers in the Soviet space program.

Secondly, some of their transcripts purport cosmonauts to leave Earth orbit and head into interplanetary or "deep" space. Earth orbit escape velocity is 40,320 kph, far greater than orbital velocity (28,160 kph) and no secondary propulsion stage or burn accompanies these accounts nor is seen in Vostok era designs.

Rusty B
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posted 02-11-2012 10:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rusty B   Click Here to Email Rusty B     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From contemporary newspaper sources:

Red Astronaut Reported Lost
Nuernberg, Germany (Associated Press)
Telegraph Herald newspaper Dec 14, 1959.

...Prof. Hermann Oberth was commenting on reports distributed by the Italian news agency Continentale that the Soviet Union had made four futile attempts to get a human being into space.

"I know from American intelligence reports that one attempt at the end of 1957 or beginning of 1958 failed." said the 66 - year old former member of the U.S. Army's missile program at Huntsville, Ala. "I believe the Russians have made several other attempts."

With noted scientists making statements like this, it's no wonder some people believed the rumors.

Jim Behling
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posted 02-11-2012 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
...how are LEO orbits officially measured (if there is any official consensus)
Yes, a revolution is occurs when the vehicle passes over the same longitude. An orbit occurs when the vehicle passes over the ascending node (when it crosses the equator in a northerly direction)

A revolution is further since it is earth based vs an orbit which is inertial based.

Rusty B
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posted 02-11-2012 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rusty B   Click Here to Email Rusty B     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This Associated Press article quotes NASA public affairs officer John "Shorty" Powers, at the time of Gordon Coopers' MA-9 mission, as saying that NASA counted revolutions rather than orbits. They defined a revolution as passing over the launch longitude on the earths surface rather than a fixed point in space (orbit).

kyra
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posted 02-11-2012 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyra   Click Here to Email kyra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While watching a documentary on the Judica-Cordiglia brothers, I was amazed at the sophistication of the equipment they had assembled in their Torre Bert bunker by the late 1960's. It would compare to many of the Mercury and Gemini remote stations. Assembling such a station would not be cheap. The backers included many Italian radio and TV stations that followed their listening on programs through the Apollo moon landings. However, getting started in the early 1960's they needed something sensational to get them "on the map". Telemetry beeps and squeals don't sell well.

Its sad that they spoiled their legacy with the "Lost Cosmonaut" saga, as they made thousands of legitimate recordings that sit in a room sized archive to this day. There is some valuable irreplaceable history here.

They were good at their tracking work. Good enough (or notorious enough) to gain the attention of the Soviets. In fact, in April 1965 General Kamanin came on Radio Moscow to denounce them as "rats". They even traded frequencies with NASA HQ's Tracking and Data Acquisition manager John Haussman in February 1964.

Jim Behling
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posted 02-11-2012 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rusty B:
This Associated Press article quotes NASA public affairs officer John "Shorty" Powers, at the time of Gordon Coopers' MA-9 mission, as saying that NASA counted revolutions rather than orbits.
NASA changed to orbits during Gemini.

Dirk
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posted 02-12-2012 04:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dirk   Click Here to Email Dirk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A fellow space collector who met last year several cosmonauts in London at the unveiling of the 50th anniversary statue in Admiralty Arch mailed me the followed message:
Both Patrick Moore and Alexei Leonov have told me that Vladimir [Ilyushin] was not the first in space, but Valentina Tereskova and her latest husband Valery Bykovsky had a firm view he was the first launched, and embarrassed Nikita Khrushchev by not having the good news he sought by landing in China. Russia only wanted good news, that was why they rapidly recalled Kruschchev from a holiday trip when Gagarin was successful.

Lasv3
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posted 02-12-2012 05:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lasv3   Click Here to Email Lasv3     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I personally find the claims of Gagarin not being the first the same junk as the Apollo moon landings hoax theories. And I'm afraid these both will live for a long time, unfortunately.

Peshawa
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posted 09-30-2013 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peshawa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was stationed at a US listening post in Peshawar, West Pakistan in 1967. A high priority of the base was to monitor the Baikonur site just to the north. I spoke with several Russian linguists there who told me that Gagarin was not the first to orbit earth, that it was actually a Vladimir Sergeyevich Ilyushin (note correct name, not Sergey Vladimirovich). They also said Ilyushin ended up in a hospital in China, and Gagarin was sent up "within days" afterwards.

As far fetched as this whole story sounds, I for one believe it. Although I was a Soviet air defense analyst, I had the same security clearance as the linguists, and it was told to me in their secure area.

As an interesting side note, since the Soviets did not have worldwide monitoring sites for their space shots, they used what we called "burst transmissions" to send data to earth. They recorded data in the capsule during the orbit, then sent it high speed to ground stations in Western Russia as the space craft came over the horizon. Our station in Pakistan was able to clearly pick up these bursts, so we knew everything that occurred during the orbit, in real time. A very big reason the US would never admit to knowing what went on in the Soviet program is that it would give away the high capability of our monitoring sites that stretched from Europe to Asia.

Another interesting side note is that Francis Gary Powers flew his ill-fated U2 out of the local airport in this same city.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 09-30-2013 04:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peshawa:
I spoke with several Russian linguists there who told me that Gagarin was not the first to orbit earth, that it was actually a Vladimir Sergeyevich Ilyushin (note correct name, not Sergey Vladimirovich). They also said Ilyushin ended up in a hospital in China, and Gagarin was sent up "within days" afterwards.
The Ilyushin story has been well-documented and equally well-debunked.

As sad as the situation is, there were individuals who worked at Kennedy Space Center who to this day claim the United States never went to the moon. Their position at the launch site doesn't make it true; it just makes them gullible of rumors and conspiracy theories.

bwhite1976
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posted 09-30-2013 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bwhite1976   Click Here to Email bwhite1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So all of the documentation and eyewitness reports and all of the everything else that clearly, definitively say Gagarin was the first Soviet, first man, to orbit the Earth are wrong?

You can take your accounts from a person from a person from a person. I will take the mountain of resources that say Gagarin was first and deserves his rightful place in history.

Dirk
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posted 10-01-2013 06:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dirk   Click Here to Email Dirk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have copies of the faxes of the US Embassy in Moscow to the Secretary of State, dated May 5, 1961, in which was said:
According to a US correspondent in Moscow one of the French colleagues requested the Foreign Ministry press department for an interview with Ilyushin after Bobrovsky's story was published.
The request reportedly caused visible embarrassment in the press department, but the correspondent was told that it would receive consideration. After waiting a few days he again brought the matter up and was told he would shortly receive a reply. The reply apparently was the Pravda story.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-01-2013 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No one is disputing that there were press reports at the time citing Ilyushin was first to space. It was just that those press reports were a complete fabrication, the result of correspondents jumping to conclusions in the rush to beat their colleagues to print.

kyra
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posted 10-04-2013 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyra   Click Here to Email kyra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The documentation for the events leading up to Yuri Gagarin's flight has continuity, including serial numbers of the spaceraft and engineering design, and flight training and planning. The mere notion that anyone else was first from this perspective is absurd.


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