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Author
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Topic: Waning interest in Mercury-Gemini-Apollo?
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yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 07-15-2015 08:08 PM
   
Was recently at an event that had a number of middle school through high school level students and their parents attending. I took the opportunity to ask around about any interest in the space exploration (there was some) but in follow-up question about the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo programs mostly got "blank responses saying I don't know what you are talking about" or "I remember hearing about it in history class/a couple of pages in our history book."With the majority of the world's population born after the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo programs finished what do you think the interest will be like in 15 to 20 years? I know even with my interest in space and my collectibles my children have the "blank" response if I were to ask them the same question. |
jdcupp
Member Posts: 45
From: Cookeville, TN, USA
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 07-15-2015 08:52 PM
I think a lack of MGA knowledge is also typical of many current college-age students. In one of the classes I teach, I recently had to explain to a student that the Saturn V launch vehicle photo he was discussing was not an "Apollo Space Shuttle."And being an old timer and avid MGA fan, I have exposed my own children to many glorious tales of the "golden age of spaceflight." So much so, that my college-age son (who is definitely not a nerd) was watching a TV game show where the question was asked, "Who was the last man to walk on the Moon?" My son immediately answered, "Gene Cernan!", then slowly turned to me and said, "It's scary that I know that." |
Cozmosis22
Member Posts: 968
From: Texas * Earth
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted 07-15-2015 10:25 PM
This is sad but true and yet another example of the sorry condition of academia in America today. If you want your children to learn a little bit about space exploration you must teach them yourself. |
Silent Sea
Member Posts: 36
From:
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted 07-15-2015 11:02 PM
I guess it all really depends on where you go to and who you talk to. As a twentysomething and someone who's read a boatload of astronaut biographies, I certainly didn't lose interest!  I still can't remember quite what sparked my recent interest in this particular era of space exploration, but I don't think it really matters, I suppose. I find it an inspiring and fascinating part of our history and enjoy watching documentaries and shows about it with my parents. I wholeheartedly agree with people telling younger folks about this amazing era themselves rather than relying on others to do so. It does no good to fuss and moan about kids not getting it and then sit by and do nothing. There are lots of ways to do it, whether by telling your own stories, reading children's books on the topic, or if they're older, introducing them to something like "From the Earth to the Moon" — now there's something for the binge watcher.  Hopefully people are getting in touch with elected officials, voting, and otherwise showing their interests in keeping the history alive through various projects (like the Abandoned in Place kickstarter, for example) and joining advocacy groups. While it may seem unrelated to the MGA era specifically, I would hope that people who were inspired by that era would feel an even bigger need to push for continued exploration back to the moon and on towards Mars. If people want to come up with a million excuses why we can't do this, that's their prerogative, but I choose to honor the first steps by doing what I can to move us forward. I realize this is a bit long, but it's been on my mind for quite some time. |
SpaceyInMN
Member Posts: 355
From: Andover, MN
Registered: Dec 2013
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posted 07-16-2015 12:32 AM
My wife and I homeschool our children, and believe you me, our kids know about the history of space, including M-G-A. It's to the point that they get irritated with me talking about space history. Happily, they still ask about the numerous astronaut photos and autographs I have up around the house, which often evolves into a longer discussion. I must be doing something right! |
SkyMan1958
Member Posts: 867
From: CA.
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 07-16-2015 01:09 AM
That's only natural as more history has rolled by. I strongly suspect the space geeks of today were the aviation geeks of two or three generations ago (or even the general populations of those two eras). How many of us could say who did what aeronautically in the 1903-1939 timeframe, aside from the truly major aeronautic events like the Wright brothers in 1903? For example, how many of us have heard of Alcock and Brown? They flew the first non-stop transatlantic flight, flying from St. John's Newfoundland to Clifton, Ireland. This flight occurred in 1919, roughly eight years before Lindbergh's flight. In a like sense, I strongly suspect in the future most people will only have heard of Gagarin and Armstrong, and won't know anything about the spacecraft that they actually used. |
topmiler
Member Posts: 148
From: eastleigh, hampshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted 07-16-2015 05:39 AM
It's a huge task but I'm gradually winning the battle to have my 12 year old realise that unique and major historical events have been made by real people, some of whom are still around today, and it's it's a huge honour and privilege to meet them. Many of today's so-called TV celebrities bombarding the media with their mostly undeserved self importance will be here today, gone tomorrow and remembered by few. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 07-16-2015 08:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SkyMan1958:
I strongly suspect the space geeks of today were the aviation geeks of two or three generations ago (or even the general populations of those two eras).
I could not agree more. Blaming it on academia is nonsense. I would say there is an over emphasis of MGA on this site. Aside from a few missions in each program, they are not individually important in the overall scheme of things. For instance, the Panama Canal has had more of a historical impact than the Gemini program as a whole. The MGA milestones that really matter (from a U.S. point of view) are MR-3, MA-6, Apollo 8, Apollo 11 and ASTP. Now there are 40 more years of human spaceflight to cover and not to mention the major unmanned missions. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 07-16-2015 08:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jdcupp:
I think a lack of MGA knowledge is also typical of many current college-age students.
Would they know the difference between a B-17 or B-24, B-47 or B-52, B-1 or B-2? Atlas V, Delta IV or Falcon 9? |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 07-16-2015 09:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jdcupp:
In one of the classes I teach, I recently had to explain to a student that the Saturn V launch vehicle photo he was discussing was not an "Apollo Space Shuttle."
You have to realize that most people equate "space shuttle" with "spacecraft" or "rocket." So yes, the Saturn V is an Apollo rocket. Ask them, "Did a space shuttle fly to the moon?" They think you asked, did a spacecraft fly to the moon, and answer yes. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 07-16-2015 09:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SkyMan1958:
I strongly suspect the space geeks of today were the aviation geeks of two or three generations ago (or even the general populations of those two eras).
Excellent point.History keeps plugging along and it's silly to think that everyone's going to be interested in everything that's gone past. And for each of us who knows all the moonwalkers, there's someone, somewhere who rolls their eyes at us because none of us might not know, say, another group of people in another historical topic that few of us simply don't care much about. I do, however, get worried about how little people know of the WW2 era. I do historical lecturing on the subject in schools from time to time and it frightens me that people don't know that there were plenty of other people killed by the Nazis in concentration camps besides Jewish people. Or how Stalin killed millions of his own people. Or what the Japanese did to their neighboring Asians nations. That's the kind of stuff which could repeat itself if people forget. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 07-16-2015 11:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
That's the kind of stuff which could repeat itself if people forget.
Too true. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 07-16-2015 11:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
"..the Panama Canal has had more of a historical impact than the Gemini program as a whole."
Here we go again! Poor Gemini gets the short end of the stick. With all due respect, without the Gemini flights there would NOT be any Apollo 8 or 11. In order to test men, procedures and hardware for the lunar missions, you have to learn to crawl, then walk before you can attempt to sprint or run. If you would have to 'choose' two Gemini flights as milestones to highlight the importance of the program, then GT-4 (first US spacewalk) and GT-8 (first manned rendezvous/docking of two spacecraft) would fit the bill. The others would be icing on the cake, but equally important. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 07-16-2015 11:39 AM
And deservedly so, without Apollo 8 or 11, the Gemini flights would be meaningless. Gemini was the means and not the end. Much like fighting malaria was important in building the Panama Canal. So, Gemini is just a footnote and not a milestone. People remember when their kids walk and not so much when they crawl. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 07-16-2015 11:55 AM
Let's face facts; for right or wrong, Gemini will always get the shaft, historically. You can 'sell' Mercury to the public as the first steps, and Apollo for the moon landing. They can understand these concepts. Gemini was, of course, a very needed middle step, but it's one that the general public doesn't see as clearly as the other two phases, for the reasons I just cited. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 07-16-2015 12:24 PM
Let me add another thing, the fixation on MGA and von Braun group overshadowed other aspects of the space program in the 50s and 60s. The Cape has a rich history that goes beyond Army Ballistic Missile Agency and its Missile Firing Laboratory. They actually had a small percentage of the overall launch rate. And, AMBA had little to no role in the Mercury-Atlas, Gemini-Titan and Gemini-Agena launches. The Goddard launch ops group was also overshadowed.I am a child of MGA. I was born in 1960 and knew I would be an aerospace engineer by time I was 8 years old (after seeing Apollo 8). I spent the 70s going to every library accessible to get books on the space program (I still do but via online). I became deeply involved in watching shuttle development and received a subscription to Aviation Week for my 15th birthday. A few years later, I got the shuttle news reference from the National Space Society. I read the document multiple times and knew the material from cover to cover. So much so, that when I was assigned to the Air Force shuttle program office, they were amazed that I knew the systems and acronyms. After Challenger (which I watched from the Pentagon while attending a meeting of the DOD space shuttle users' committee), I reassessed my views of the space program. I found: - that I was steamrolled by the NASA PR machine
- Working for the Air Force made me realize there was much more to the space program than manned missions or NASA missions.
- adding to this was the disillusions with working the ISS on the Spacehab program
Where does this lead? My focus on spaceflight history is on anything that doesn't involve MGA and shuttle or ISS. And there is a whole lot out there. Especially with the declassification of the many reconnaissance programs.Sorry about the rant. But I can say the same things about MGA fans as it relates to the rest of the space program. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-16-2015 01:26 PM
If Gemini is only a footnote (and I am not saying it is or it isn't) then from a general history perspective, the activities carried outside of human spaceflight and robotic planetary probes are practically inconsequential to the history of space exploration. For the most part, satellites (reconnaissance, meteorological, communications, et al) are also a means to an end, not a milestone, and that end is based on the ground rather than in space. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 07-16-2015 01:38 PM
Let's just say that Gemini was full of important milestones on the way to the moon, but deserves at least a star next to its 'footnote.' And I concur that unmanned satellites and robotic probes (especially like New Horizons that just flew by Pluto) are as significant and deserving of attention as shuttle, ISS, Orion or any future manned endeavor. The obvious conclusion is, both manned and unmanned programs go hand in hand, depending on each other as we have seen during the long history of space flight. Without Ranger, Lunar Orbiter and Surveyor, there would be no Apollo lunar landings; without TDRS, coverage of shuttle and ISS missions would not be 24/7 and vital to mission success. And GPS satellites are crucial to both military and civilian activities on Earth. Granted, human spaceflight may take the lion's share of the publicity, but many on this forum know the historic significance of planetary/deep space missions like Rosetta, Galileo and New Horizons and other more obscure programs like Echo, OSO and Pioneer. Hopefully, we can pass on this history to the next generation and inspire some 'earthbound astronauts' too. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 07-16-2015 03:37 PM
In grade school, it always drove me nuts that we never got even close to modern times in history classes. I'm certain that the moon landings never came up as we never got that far into the book. quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
Let me add another thing, the fixation on MGA and von Braun group overshadowed other aspects of the space program in the 50s and 60s. The Cape has a rich history that goes beyond Army Ballistic Missile Agency and its Missile Firing Laboratory.
True, but if 'them dadgum kids today' don't even know who walked on the moon, when it happened or how they got there (in other words, arguably the biggest news story of the 20th century, if not in all of human history since the creation of fire), how in the heck are you going to get them to know anything about all the baby steps it took to get there?For example, you can discuss the Wright brothers and the 1903 flight, but is a normal audience of people who aren't aviation history fans gonna care about all the other experiments leading up to that? No, of course they won't. History is like that, you have to hit the highlights unless you have an audience that is really, deeply into your subject. I've only ever had the joy of that once. I'll be doing a historical lecture to a school in November about military astronauts and I'll mention a lot of stuff like that, but I must be honest and admit that I'm going to pass over everything prior to the first U.S. manned launches pretty fast. Too much material to cover as it is. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 07-16-2015 07:35 PM
No Gemini... no Apollo 11.Having said that, "When We Left the Earth" (even with its flaws) should be required viewing for grade school students. It gives a complete, concise, and mostly accurate view for the time period which encapsulates Mercury through shuttle. And best of all, it has enough drama and cliffhangers to hold their attention. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 07-17-2015 02:04 AM
Aren't we all missing the point here? Given that those on this forum have an interest in all aspects of space and therefore might be said to be keen to see it taught in schools and become more widely known, the reality is that history is such a broad subject that only a few topics can be explored.The criteria would seem to be that these topics are selected on the basis that the event or person had a great, lasting impact on human lives. Much as it grieves me to say so the Wright brothers have had more impact on our daily lives than Neil Armstrong. For all its majesty Apollo didn't alter the flow of history in the same way as did the Battle of Britain or Waterloo on this side of the Atlantic, or did the Declaration of Independence or the Vietnam War in the States. This doesn't mean that it should be forgotten completely. The MGA years need to be remembered and kept alive by enthusiasts such as us as a backwater in the rich vein of human activity, but, regretably, not mainstream. |
OLDIE
Member Posts: 267
From: Portsmouth, England
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 07-17-2015 03:16 AM
As a kid in the 1950s, my interest in spaceflight was sparked by the "Eagle" comic with Dan Dare, pilot of the future, and such films as "Red planet Mars" and "Destination Moon". Then I went to secondary school and learned "real" history (such as the Irish Question, Bismarck and Lord Palmerston).Spaceflight was never again mentioned until the moon landings in 1969. A friend of a friend gave me some slides of the Gemini programme at this time, and the spark of interest was re-kindled. It was then a steep learning curve. I think if a spark of interest, in some aspect of spaceflight, is lit with kids somewhere down the line, then it can be re-ignited later, when the time is right. It's important, though, TO LIGHT THAT FIRST SPARK. |
OV3Discovery
Member Posts: 100
From:
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted 07-17-2015 04:21 AM
I was born many years after the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo era, yet space is really the only thing which I have an interest in. None of friends have any interests either. I can see what you mean by the lack of interest through the generations. One of the people was talking about the lack of space history in school curriculums which is true. I haven't had a single lesson in school which was about spaceflight, past or present. Once in class our teacher shows us the last flight of Challenger. Some of the people could not tell what was going on.
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Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 07-17-2015 08:54 AM
Is interest waning on the history of human spaceflight is a question that historians, collectors, investors, dealers and auction houses have been asking for the past twenty years. More specifically, will there be a new generation of interested kids in M-G-A and humans on the Moon and Mars? Granted, in the above context, the question is more related to collecting than contemplating if history is taught in schools or a debate about the potential of this topic’s fade due to apathy. As I said, it is a subject that has been debated since the mid 1990’s.
The interest is still there. People discover and rediscover the human spaceflight programs of the past. I know that in Massachusetts, spaceflight and spaceflight history are taught in the Middle School curriculum in science classes. Our daughter did a report on the Apollo program in 8th grade. It was one of the best reports I ever have co-written. The engineering schools are full of aerospace engineering students. MIT offers a course titled "Engineering Apollo" every two years. I took that course and now lecture in it. Just as we think spaceflight and past human spaceflight interest in waning, we have New Horizons and the Astronaut Wives Club.
Spaceflight is alive and well, if we are active in supporting it.
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fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 07-17-2015 09:07 AM
I tend to agree with Eddie (moorouge), up to a point. It can be, as he did, argue that the MGA and shuttle eras did not change the flow of history like Waterloo, WWII, the discovery of the new world, etc. But, I think this will change in the future. While we can all agree that Gagarin, Shepard, Glenn, Apollo 11, as well as other flights in the MGA era were historic, we are still too close to these events. In the coming decades and centuries, they will take on more meaning as historic events when mankind is living on Mars, mining asteroids, and preparing other adventures. Columbus is looked at differently today than in 1500. Gagarin and Armstrong will be looked at differently in 2315. |
CapSea34
New Member Posts: 1
From: Puyallup, WA, USA
Registered: Jul 2015
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posted 07-17-2015 10:02 AM
I agree with Larry in all respects.My interest in the space program was born out of seeing Apollo 13. At that point nothing that NASA was actively doing interested me (As a 7 year old I couldn't figure out what was so interesting in Earth orbit when we had been to the Moon.) With that as the initial jumping off point I dived in into astronaut biographies and mission recaps. In my time studying the space program, I've seen interest ebb and flow. This has been caused by the news, such as the end of the shuttle program or the passing of Mr. Armstrong, and popular media, like "From the Earth to the Moon." With "The Astronaut Wives Club," it appears the interest is still alive and well to varying degrees. From what I've read over the years here I believe it really does only take a few people to really catch the spark and passion like we have to keep interest alive. |
mercsim
Member Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 07-17-2015 10:45 AM
It also comes from the top down...In the last year, I think it was one of the Kelly brothers but maybe someone can help, he made a comment about the first American in space and got the name wrong. He was talking from the ISS. A few days later, Michelle Obama was on a daytime show talking about STEM subjects I think and she mentioned the "International Space Shuttle" several times. Very disappointing from people that should know better. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-17-2015 11:07 AM
If I recall correctly, Scott Kelly didn't get Alan Shepard's name incorrect, but did say that the first flight was 45 minutes long (rather than 15). And obviously, the First Lady misspoke but she did so during an offhand remark on the Ellen DeGeneres show, not during a formal address. "Space shuttle" aside, she cited the astronauts alongside Beyonce and Ryan Seacrest, suggesting she feels astronauts are still relevant to today's youth. |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 07-17-2015 12:56 PM
Is Ryan Seacrest still relevant to anyone other than the Kardashians? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-17-2015 01:01 PM
From what I gather, he's the new Casey Kasem, having inherited the late radio show host's spot on American Top 40. (But to demonstrate how out of it I might be, I had to Google to understand your Kardashians reference.) |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 07-17-2015 01:22 PM
Not to get too off topic, but Seacrest is also the host of an annual New Year's Eve show, taking over for the late Dick Clark (which he co-hosted with Clark when he was still alive). So I guess it depends on how many 'platforms' (to use some fancy business/entertainment lingo) you are on that determines how you remain and are successful in the public eye. |
oly
Member Posts: 905
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 07-17-2015 03:24 PM
Apollo 13 was chosen as a subject for a movie because it had drama and excitement that Hollywood could compress into a movie, sell tickets and make money. It captivated the audience and got them interested in history. It was made showing enough technical detail to spark the interest of people who were not born or too young to remember and went on to encourage a new generation of space enthusiasts. The movie also makes the point that by Apollo 13 American TV audiences had lost interest in going to the moon until it became a real life drama.In "From The Earth To The Moon," the Apollo 11 landing episode spent a lot of time with activities pre-launch and on earth. Hollywood can't find enough drama and excitement in the moon landing to make a Feature film on the subject with the same attention to detail as Apollo 13. And yet there were great risks involved and the history being made stopped the world and became a point in time that people ask and remember where they were when man landed on the moon. It is sad that the loss of Challenger or Columbia and Apollo 1 can become more memorable milestones in space history than the first man in space, the first spacewalk and other firsts but this is human nature and these moments in history and lives lost should not be forgotten. "Challenger, go at throttle up" has been etched into history along side "That's one small step for man." A lot of history has happened since MGA. It is fresh in the minds for anyone under 45 years old who are the parents of today's children. Shuttle is now a museum piece and New Horizons has reached its nine year goal. Interest may be waning for MGA but it is a subject that still sparks interest, we just need to fan the sparks. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-17-2015 03:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by oly:
Hollywood can't find enough drama and excitement in the moon landing to make a feature film on the subject with the same attention to detail as Apollo 13.
One of Hollywood's most buzzed about directors is in the process of making a film about the Apollo 11 mission by way of its commander's life story. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 07-17-2015 03:49 PM
'Attention to detail' is a relative term regarding Hollywood treatment of real-life history or personalities. Witness the depiction of Swigert in the movie Apollo 13 as a 'third wheel' at best or an interloper upsetting the original crews' teamwork at worst. You can go on about other script/acting choices in these and other non-space movies. It all depends on the printed word and what is put up on screen to influence people on a person or historical event. Let's hope the makers of the Apollo 11/Armstrong film try to stay as close to the historical record as possible. |
oly
Member Posts: 905
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 07-18-2015 04:25 AM
The attention to detail I refer to is with the detail of lunar module and command module simulators, the conditions in the craft, the detail in spacesuits and flight suits, etc. I am aware of the meant errors in the movie and believe they are well listed elsewhere. The point was that it had enough detail to stimulate people into learning more about the program. It is impossible to fit the events leading up to the launch and the mission into a two hour movie. But the movie has been referenced many times and has generated interest into the program. |
Joel Katzowitz
Member Posts: 808
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-20-2015 08:49 AM
Last night my son, age 34, and his wife (and kids) came over for a visit. My daughter in law started talking to me about the Astronaut Wives Club which she's been watching on TV. She was talking about Alan Shepard so I brought down an autographed photo I took of Shepard and Ed Buckbee in 1989. My son took a look at it and said "Didn't Ed Buckbee die in the Apollo 1 fire... no wait... I'm thinking of Ed White." I guess I did my part in raising my kids. |
micropooz
Member Posts: 1512
From: Washington, DC, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 07-20-2015 01:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SkyMan1958:
I strongly suspect the space geeks of today were the aviation geeks of two or three generations ago (or even the general populations of those two eras).
Agreed! Case in point: Younger versions of fellow cS'r Stevedd841 and myself, being space cover collectors, used to journey up to New York every year for the Metropolitan Airmail Postal Society (MAPS) picnic. We'd meet up with some of our fellow space cover friends there. But the bulk of the folks at the picnic were hardcore airmail collectors who grew up in the 1920's and '30's. Steve and I used to shake our heads at the intricate knowledge these guys had of the barnstormers, airmail pilots, and air racers of that era. In fact he and I used to joke about those collectors being "propeller heads". Now we are probably seen in the same light by the younger generations who grew up after MGA. I guess we are now "capsule heads". Or maybe "missile heads"... |
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