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  Different approach on Moon Landing Hoax?

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Author Topic:   Different approach on Moon Landing Hoax?
Gonzo
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Posts: 374
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 11-14-2012 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gonzo   Click Here to Email Gonzo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First off, let me start by saying that my parents thought I was nuts when I was 10 years old to want to stay up and watch Apollo 11 as we first stepped out on the Moon. So you know which camp I’m in. “Don’t tell me it didn’t happen! I watched it happen!” (Nero, “Star Trek”)

I've read other posts and have looked at least some of the "evidence" the hoaxers try to use. But I have yet to see anyone really discuss (short of calling them “nut jobs”) the merits of their arguments. I mean it’s easy to show why their arguments are misguided, naïve or just plain wrong. But do any arguments against us actually landing on the moon hold any merit at all? Are there any questions about our landings that in the right light could make even educated people sit back and go, “Hmmm…., I wonder…”.

Like I said, I have no doubt and I’m not trying to beat a dead horse here either. What I’d be interested in, and what I’m asking is, what questions are there that could feasibly be used to support the hoaxers? I’m asking because I have a good friend who’s one of those “nut jobs” that don’t believe it. I’ve tried showing him on several occasions why it did happen and he always has a question about how it could have been faked. What I’m curious about is do they have any (semi-)valid arguments or are they really a naïve and misguided group?

garymilgrom
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Posts: 1571
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 11-14-2012 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No. Especially now with high res photos from the moon showing the tracks left by the men and the Rover plus the science instruments and descent stages of the LM's, there is no reasonable argument that the moon landings were faked.

We went there. End of story.

mjanovec
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Posts: 3593
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 11-14-2012 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A second reason that no hoax argument is credible is simply because one would have to rely on thousands of people who worked on the program to keep it a secret for over 40 years.

In reality, once two people know a secret, that's already one too many.

Jurg Bolli
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Posts: 520
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-14-2012 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jurg Bolli   Click Here to Email Jurg Bolli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was at the book signing with Cernan in Tucson years ago, and his answer was quite simple: he said "I was there".

space1
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Posts: 506
From: Danville, Ohio, USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 11-14-2012 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for space1   Click Here to Email space1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All of the hardware was designed, built and tested that would enable astronauts to go to the moon. The effort was mind-numbingly enormous. Everything from the smallest screw to the largest forging was tested to meet strict requirements. Those tests had to be developed, and the results documented. Every failure scenario for every system was studied, and workarounds developed, to minimize risk.

Take a look sometime at some of the studies done in support of the moon effort (maybe NTIS or NASA Technical Reports Server would be good starting points). You'll find literally hundreds of reports with titles like "Determination of Delta-V for Stage Separation to Avoid Vehicle Contact" (I made that up, but I have seen reports like that). Every detail of every step was studied, tested, simulated, backed up, and rehearsed. If something failed more studies were done to determine the cause and develop a fix.

The point is, we did everything you would need to do to actually go to the moon and back. Along with the machines we had highly trained people who would fly the machines and support them.

We saw manned rockets launch into space. If they had stayed in earth orbit we would have seen them passing overhead as we see other earth satellites. But they left earth orbit for the moon. And we received their signals, and in some cases saw their vehicles. The experiments they left behind are still tracked today (laser reflectors). And as already mentioned their equipment and footprints have been imaged from lunar orbit.

Of course we went to the moon.

NC Apollo Fan
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Posts: 261
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 11-14-2012 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NC Apollo Fan   Click Here to Email NC Apollo Fan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personally I cannot think of a hoax argument that stands well against common sense and a basic understanding of science. The problem with conspiracy theory folks is that they always have an answer. For example, when presented with the high resolution LRO landing site images they can simply disregard them as altered or 'photoshopped.'

You cannot win with someone who is unwilling to use logic and common sense.

I have recommended Phil Plait's badastronomy.com to hoax folks with some success. The TV show Mythbusters also had an entertaining episode that explored the lunar landing conspiracy theories (currently on Netflix, but I cannot remember the episode).

I have never come across a compelling lunar conspiracy argument.

p51
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Posts: 771
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 11-14-2012 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've posted this elsewhere on this forum, but hard to laugh while watching a scene from "From the Earth to the Moon" episode, "Is That All There Is" where Bean is messing around with the camera, to the right it looks clearly to me like a corner in the backdrop on the set way behind him. Somehow that seemed ironic for this topic.

My late Uncle (one of the chief geologists for the state of Florida in the past, and a well-educated and respected man) used to say they were faked, but I think he said it to come across as a "character" as he had a very odd sense of humor. Looking back, I now doubt he really believed that.

I served in the Army with a Sergeant under me who firmly believed it. We talked about it from time to time and really discussed it while sitting around one day at a gunnery exercise in the desert. I used pure logic and human behavior to turn him around.

He'd been in Desert Storm and I asked if they'd faked the use of fuel air bombs (they dropped a few right in front of him on the Iraqi lines before the ground war started), wouldn't that get out? He said of course it would because someone would have talked. I then pointed out that hundreds of thousands of people had their hands in the Apollo program and using his logic, several of them by then would have come forth or had deathbed confessions that they helped fake the landings.

Also, someone involved surely would have written a book by that point to make money for their kid's college fund or something like that. I also pointed out how gleefully the Russians would have busted such a hoax as they would have been able to track the flights and they said nothing, and the fact that people all over the world were tracking the flights.

He mulled it over for a moment and said, "Sir, that makes a lot of sense. I never thought about that but you're right. Someone in the know would have said something by now, wouldn't they?" and that was that. He later said he felt foolish for even thinking that the landings didn't happen.

Tom Hanks was asked about conspiracy theories and he replied, "We live in a society where there is no law [against] making money in the promulgation of ignorance or, in some cases, stupidity."

I would have loved to have seen Buzz Aldrin punch Bart Sibrel over this issue! Better yet was that nobody would prosecute Aldrin over the incident.

GoesTo11
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Posts: 1025
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-14-2012 07:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoesTo11   Click Here to Email GoesTo11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As someone in the program (I think it was Buzz) once said, "Hell, it would have been harder to fake the whole thing."

In all seriousness though...a while back, I started another thread on this forum asking if anyone personally knew a "Moon-hoaxer" that drew some interesting, and often amusing, responses. I don't know any (that I know of), but my impression is that your "approach" to people sincerely committed to believing nonsense--whatever the subject--usually just doesn't matter. They're fantasists, and will believe what they choose contra whatever evidence or reasoning you present to them.

The exceptions worth investing your time and knowledge in are those such as the Sergeant in the earlier anecdote who are simply ill-informed or who haven't really considered the notion in a practical way...whose number, I believe, may be sadly increasing the further removed we grow from the events themselves.

lspooz
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Posts: 71
From: Greensboro NC USA
Registered: Aug 2012

posted 11-14-2012 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lspooz   Click Here to Email lspooz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You cannot win with someone who is unwilling to use logic and common sense.

Well said - the best use of your time might be to try the approach of having them watch the Mythbusters show, in that many folks will believe what they see debunked, rather than just having it verbally explained...

Beau08
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Posts: 140
From: Peoria, AZ United States
Registered: Aug 2011

posted 11-14-2012 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Beau08   Click Here to Email Beau08     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I like Charlie Duke's response the best; "Why would we fake it nine times if we faked it?"

p51
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Posts: 771
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 11-14-2012 09:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GoesTo11:
They're fantasists, and will believe what they choose contra whatever evidence or reasoning you present to them.
Too true. There are people today who believe all kinds of crazy things, like all manners of conspiracy theorists (JFK, Rosewell, and the like).

Heck, anyone ever watch that current show on cable where bigfoot 'researchers' go into the woods and with no real evidence of ANY kind, declare there is one nearby because, it "feels squatchy" to them? Just like the ghost 'researchers' who proclaim a ghost is there because it feels odd to them in that spot at that moment. Think of all the people who believe all these shows, hook, line, and sinker? Knowing that, should any of us be shocked there are people who really believe the moon landings were faked? Proof? Who needs proof these days when you have a TV show where you just proclaim stuff and people will buy into it?

The most scary of them all are those who really believe that the Holocaust never happened. There are plenty of people who believe that, too.

moorouge
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Posts: 1490
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009

posted 11-15-2012 12:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When discussing this topic one should remember the words of the wise man when asked what is the truth. He replied, "The truth, my son, is whatever you want it be."

BobbyA
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Posts: 146
From: Northern Virginia
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 11-15-2012 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbyA   Click Here to Email BobbyA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I always want to ask the people that believe it was a hoax... When did the hoax begin? Every mission from Freedom 7 to Apollo 17 was a little more complex than the previous mission.

Where do the hoaxers believe that NASA went from reality to fraud? Do they believe that Apollo 10 orbited the moon but Apollo 11 couldn't land on it? Or was Apollo 10 a fake too?

albatron
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Posts: 2103
From: Stuart, Florida, USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 11-15-2012 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron   Click Here to Email albatron     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think all are very valid and well written points, but, I think, they also miss the original question's point.

The question was, did the Moon Hoaxers have any valid questions or any merit to their argument - not did we really go. I think this is more about a discussion over points that may be valid, but misconstrued.

Some people are sincere in their belief we did not go, and are well intended and simply misguided.

I personally do not think any points they make hold any merit, and feel Phil Plait's book addresses each of their points, and debunks them as previously written.

ilbasso
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Posts: 1493
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 11-15-2012 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ilbasso   Click Here to Email ilbasso     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem with most of the Moon hoaxer arguments (other than the fact that they're full of baloney) is that they fail the simple test of Occam's Razor. All of the arguments require extra layers of assumptions and explanations, which become much more convoluted than simply looking at what's there.

As the number of people who were alive at the time of the Moon landings dwindles, there are fewer of us who actually witnessed these events live on TV. The technology of Apollo was advanced at the time, but seems primitive now. The technology of TV, radio, and imagery was even more primitive. It would have been a lot harder back then to fake the TV and radio broadcasts, the tracking of the spacecraft to and from the Moon, and the images that came back.

To my mind, the best argument that the US made it to the Moon is that the USSR would have publicly called us on it if they had any evidence that we were faking it.

Rusty B
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Posts: 239
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 11-15-2012 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rusty B   Click Here to Email Rusty B     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The moon landing hoax stories started right after the moon landings. The earliest story I could find was three days after the Apollo 11 moon landing. Here are links to early stories in the Google newspaper archive:

Gonzo
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Posts: 374
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 11-16-2012 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gonzo   Click Here to Email Gonzo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So it's the general consensus that the hoaxers have no valid arguments at all? They don't pose anything that is questionable and makes you think?

As I said, I'm not in that camp, but I find it interesting that we summarily dismiss anything they could bring up as either misinformed or just plain wrong. While I don't agree with them and (in my opinion) their beliefs are unfounded, we don't even think they could raise anything of value? I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but maybe they do have something to add to our understanding, if we were to listen to their viewpoints.

And that's all I'm asking about - are there any unanswered questions? Do they point out anything that could aid in our understanding of these historical events?

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 27327
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-16-2012 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only question I have ever heard the hoaxers raise that came to close to having academic merit really has nothing to do with if the moon landings happened or not.

They ask, "If we really went to the moon in the 1960s, why aren't we still going there today?"

Of course, the fact that we aren't still on the moon does not in any way negate the Apollo program as a reality, but it is a valid question — just for different reasons.

Ironically, in order to best understand the answer of why Apollo didn't continue on indefinitely first requires an acknowledgement and acceptance of why the landings took place. So ultimately, the hoaxers own refusal to accept reality leaves them incapable of comprehending the answer to their question.

JPSastro
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Posts: 121
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 11-16-2012 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JPSastro   Click Here to Email JPSastro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heard a new one to me via the hoaxers. Friend showed me a PDF that states that we NEVER went to the far side of the Moon. WHY? Because it was an agreement with "them" that we would never intrude on "them".

None of any probes sent to the Moon have ever orbited the moon around the dark side, just a polar type orbit (shades of 2010 and Europa). Any photos purporting to be of the far side are a HOAX.

The guy who let me read this piece of work is in his late 60's and has a college degree. And he solidly believes it.

There is a retired Naval Aviator here that states the same thing and claims he flew "chase" at Area 51 when our boys were test flying the UFO's or as he stated "advanced alien technology." Oh, there propulsion is "liquid mercury" that is spun up centrifugally and negates the effects of earth gravity. Cool.

In two years, yes, two years all this will be brought out publicly along with details how "they" aided us in the real moon landings. I just love hearing this trash.

Main stream media is totally aware of these facts, but are under strict controls to never report what they know or else. So it goes...

schnappsicle
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Posts: 116
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 11-18-2012 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I haven't read everything out there regarding the percieved hoax, but what I have read is enough to convince me that the people perpetrating those myths do not know what they're talking about. Their main argument against the landings is some of the photos. When I read their arguments, it’s clear they know nothing about photography or how light works on uneven reflective surfaces such as the lunar regolith. All they have to do is take a photo on the beach or in snow to realize how wrong they are.

I tried once to submit a rebuttal, but I found it was of no use. Now, I just ignore them. Those who refuse to believe the truth are free to live in their fantasy world.

All times are CT (US)

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