Author
|
Topic: P-51 crashes into stands at Reno Air Races
|
mmmoo Member Posts: 551 From: London, England Registered: May 2001
|
posted 09-16-2011 08:25 PM
The Associated Press reports that a P-51 Mustang piloted by Jimmy Leeward plunged into the grandstands Friday at the National Championship Air Races in Reno, Nevada, injuring at least 75 spectators. It wasn't immediately known if anyone died in the crash but a spokesman for the event called it a "mass casualty event." Video showed a chaotic scene with several people apparently badly wounded.Stephanie Kruse, a spokeswoman for the Regional Emergency Medical Service Authority, said 25 people were critically injured and another 25 people were seriously injured in the crash. More than 25 more people were treated for minor injuries, she said. Kruse said the critically injured were considered to have life-threatening injuries. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 09-16-2011 08:38 PM
The Los Angeles Times reports that least five people were killed. The plane crashed near the bleachers at the National Championship Air Races, said Michelle Anderson, a spokeswoman for the Reno Fire Department. The pilot was reported dead, as were four others. |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 09-16-2011 09:36 PM
Very sad. Anderson Cooper with CNN is awaiting a press conference from the Reno racing committee. According to Reno Mayor Bob Cashall in an interview with Anderson Cooper, casualty figures are not yet known. Anyone know if Hoot Gibson was at Reno this year? He usually flies the Sea Fury Riff Raff but the airplane was sold. I know he was considering flying the Jet class. I am not sure if he had another ride in the unlimited class. A very sad day for those who were killed and injured and their families. And for air racing. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 09-16-2011 10:59 PM
National Air Championship Races statement The 2011 National Championship Air Races has been cancelledAt approximately 4:20 p.m. on Friday, Sept. 16, during Unlimited Class qualifying, the P-51 Mustang "Galloping Ghost," piloted by Jimmy Leeward, crashed into the box seat area in front of the main grandstand. It is a mass casualty situation and local emergency personnel are on the scene. All emergency protocol established by the Reno Air Racing Association and local emergency responders is being followed. At this time, we do not know the status of the pilot or any of the victims involved. The Reno Gazette-Journal reports that Leeward died in the crash, along with two others who were not identified. |
Rusty B Member Posts: 239 From: Sacramento, CA Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted 09-17-2011 12:12 AM
The local Reno Gazette-Journal newspaper has a series of still photos of the crash and crash scene. |
music_space Member Posts: 1179 From: Canada Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted 09-17-2011 01:01 AM
. |
JohnPaul56 Member Posts: 180 From: Montclair, NJ, USA Registered: Apr 2010
|
posted 09-17-2011 01:16 AM
. |
machbusterman Member Posts: 1778 From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland Registered: May 2004
|
posted 09-17-2011 04:01 AM
Incredibly sad... and horrific injuries to some. Sorry to say this but if this happened in the UK there would likely be a total ban on air racing... Hopefully this won't happen at Reno. |
Rick Mulheirn Member Posts: 4167 From: England Registered: Feb 2001
|
posted 09-17-2011 04:49 AM
I may be wrong, but there have been similar incidents in the UK. Displays have not been banned but aircraft are prohibited from flying over crowds; rather displays run parallel to crowds. |
Grounded! Member Posts: 367 From: Bennington, Vermont, USA Registered: Feb 2011
|
posted 09-17-2011 07:20 AM
. |
jasonelam Member Posts: 691 From: Monticello, KY USA Registered: Mar 2007
|
posted 09-17-2011 07:39 AM
. |
ApolloAlex Member Posts: 390 From: Yeovil, England Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted 09-17-2011 12:04 PM
Tragic news. |
fredtrav Member Posts: 1673 From: Birmingham AL Registered: Aug 2010
|
posted 09-17-2011 12:52 PM
. |
garymilgrom Member Posts: 1966 From: Atlanta, GA Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 09-17-2011 01:21 PM
Three dead plus injuries is being reported at this time. Apparently the pilot made a maneuver that avoided more people. |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 09-17-2011 01:58 PM
Tragic. I love air racing. but I suspect this may be the end of the Reno event. It appears Hoot Gibson had his own minor mishap as well. Since the sale of his previous ride Riff Raff, Hoot is now flying the highly modified Hawker Sea Fury named September Fury. Apparently during a trial run Thursday on his last lap Hoot blew a piston and was forced to call a mayday. He was able to pull off the course safely, gain altitude, and bring September Fury in for a safe landing, but it just shows at zero altitude and 450 mph how dangerous these races can be. |
Rob Joyner Member Posts: 1308 From: GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
|
posted 09-17-2011 02:23 PM
In the above "series of still photos" link Leeward is seen in photo #38 as he taxis, but cannot be seen in photos 6 & 7 just before the crash. Is it possible he became incapacitated and lost control? |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 09-17-2011 05:56 PM
The Associated Press reports that the death toll from the crash rose to nine people Saturday. The deaths include seven people who died on the tarmac, including the 74-year-old pilot, and two others who died at hospitals, Reno Deputy Police Chief Dave Evans said.The higher death toll was announced at a briefing a day after the Friday afternoon crash. Authorities previously said that three people had perished. As of Saturday afternoon, 40 of the 69 people injured enough to be treated at hospitals had been discharged. The conditions of those still held: eight, critical; nine, serious; 10 fair; two good. |
micropooz Member Posts: 1512 From: Washington, DC, USA Registered: Apr 2003
|
posted 09-17-2011 06:44 PM
I found it odd that, in the crash photos, the tailwheel of the P-51 was deployed before impact. I don't know enough about unlimited racing to know if this is the norm during a race, but I would be surprised if it is. Can someone enlighten me?If not, can the tailwheel nominally be deployed without deploying the main gear in a P-51? |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 09-17-2011 07:25 PM
Hoot Gibson wasn't the only astronaut slated to fly this weekend. The Arizona Daily Star reports that Mark Kelly was there, too. Mark Kelly was in Reno for the annual aviation event as a guest of the Breitling watch company. He was supposed to perform acrobatics in a plane as part of the Reno air races, which were cancelled following a fatal crash. |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 09-17-2011 08:22 PM
Astroanut Col Curt Brown was also there. Curt is one of the top Jet Class air racing pilots in the world. |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 09-17-2011 09:13 PM
Not to say this was the cause of the crash. But a photo released to the press shortly before the crash of Galloping Ghost clearly shows the left elevator trim tab coming off the aircraft while in a left turn. |
mjanovec Member Posts: 3811 From: Midwest, USA Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 09-18-2011 12:34 AM
This crash appears to be eerily similar to what happened to Bob Hannah flying the P-51 Voodoo Chile back in 1998. He lost his left elevator trim tab.... the same part that photos show coming detached from Leeward's Galloping Ghost. In Hannah's case (described here) he lost consciousness when the plane suddenly pulled up. Luckily, he survived because the plane continued to climb instead of nosing over. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same happened to Leeward on Friday, except his plane nosed over instead of continuing to climb. The fact we don't see his helmet through the canopy in those final photos suggests he may have blacked out and been slumped over at the end.Also, the tailwheel should not have been deployed at the time of the crash. The fact it is deployed does suggest the plane may have undergone some severe G-loads to dislodge it from the retracted position. This is the first spectator fatality from an airplane crash at a US airshow since 1952. That's a pretty remarkable record. |
gliderpilotuk Member Posts: 3398 From: London, UK Registered: Feb 2002
|
posted 09-18-2011 04:19 AM
Let's not forget that this plane bears only a passing resemblance to a P-51, being heavily modified and rebuilt (4x), so when the press talk about a "vintage warbird" the provenance of the aircraft has little to do with the tragic accident. Likewise the age of the very experienced pilot is irrelevant.It does look like a trim-tab problem, possibly caused by a high-speed stall resulting in very hi-g motion. The same thing happened to another P-51 some years ago but the pilot recovered from the blackout and landed safely. Having been to Reno the race takes place along way from the crowd line and in fact the scariest thing was the Thunderbirds flying directly towards the crowd (presumably before pilots were banned from directing energy in this direction). This was tragic and probably unavoidable in terms of the outcome. RIP and condolences to the relatives.
|
FullThrottle Member Posts: 93 From: Seattle, WA, USA Registered: Sep 2010
|
posted 09-18-2011 05:38 AM
My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims of this tragic accident and our astronaut heroes who enjoy the hobby of air shows and racing...I meant to mention this earlier but couldn't figure out how to link to the picture in the album posted a few posts up. In this close up picture of the plane a second before the crash it looks to me like you can actually see the tail trim tab section missing! It happens so fast when it starts that close to the ground nobody even had a chance to get out of the way! |
astro-nut Member Posts: 946 From: Washington, IL Registered: Jan 2006
|
posted 09-18-2011 07:04 AM
. |
mercsim Member Posts: 219 From: Phoenix, AZ Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 09-18-2011 10:43 AM
Modern race aircraft are usually set up so the trim tab is neutral at race speed to minimize drag. The tab departing in flight should hardly have been noticeable unless the tail volume was so critically close that loosing the surface area made a difference. However, the horizontal tail usually produces a downward force to counteract the negative pitching moment produced by the wing. It would seem that loosing tail surface area would cause a nose-down pitching instead of the nose-up seen in the videos. This plane could have been set-up differently but from a basic aerodynamic standpoint, it doesn't make sense.I was the last person to fly a Grob aerobatic aircraft in the early 90's before an elevator departed killing both occupants. The NTSB found the elevator was not properly balanced and fluttered. When it departed, the aircraft violently pitched nose-down blacking out both pilots. They never recovered. The race pilot was most likely belted in the cockpit such that he could not have slumped over far enough to be out of view. That photo seems suspicious. Its a very complicated situation that may take a long time to figure out exactly what happened. Whatever the outcome, I'm sure the pilot and racing astronauts would want the races to go on. |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 09-18-2011 04:18 PM
I agree with Paul (gliderpilotuk) I was at Reno in 2007 and can say they do a great job at keeping the fans away from the course. Sadly, like all extreme motor sports, there is always the risk of an aircraft going off the course with tragic results. |
mjanovec Member Posts: 3811 From: Midwest, USA Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 09-18-2011 08:06 PM
quote: Originally posted by mercsim: Modern race aircraft are usually set up so the trim tab is neutral at race speed to minimize drag.
My understanding is that the Mustang is flown with trim to keep the nose down at those speeds. Lose the trim and the plane will pitch up...which is exactly what happened to Bob Hannah in Voodoo Chile. quote: Originally posted by mercsim: The race pilot was most likely belted in the cockpit such that he could not have slumped over far enough to be out of view. That photo seems suspicious.
I assume this is the photo you find suspicious. I don't find it suspicious at all, especially since another photo from a different photographer shows essentially the same thing...that being no visible helmet through the canopy and the tail gear in the down position. Both photos surfaced very quickly after the accident, so there was very little time to doctor the image and get all of the details correct. Also, the same photographer had captured this image a couple seconds earlier, showing the lost left elevator trim tab. Another key thing to notice in this photo is that the pilot's helmet appears to be far forward in the cockpit. If his full body isn't slumped over, then at least his neck and head are slumped forward. Also people at the scene (and videos of the accident) indicate the plane appeared to hit the ground at nearly full throttle. To me, that further indicates the pilot was unconscious at the time of the crash...most likely from the high g-loading after he lost his trim tab. |
mercsim Member Posts: 219 From: Phoenix, AZ Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 09-18-2011 08:34 PM
Believe a photo or go stand next to one of those airplanes and look in the cockpit. I said there isn't room to get completely out of view when properly belted. I don't think you can get completely out of view even when not belted. I have been all around and in those kinds of planes and there just isn't that much room.I am also curious where the photo was taken from with such resolution. The photographer would seem to have been on the other side of the field shooting an airplane moving 500 mph or so. Not saying its impossible, just odd given the quality of other limited but posted photos. The angle is also odd if you think about what you see in the videos. |
mjanovec Member Posts: 3811 From: Midwest, USA Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 09-18-2011 08:47 PM
quote: Originally posted by mercsim: Believe a photo or go stand next to one of those airplanes and look in the cockpit. I said there isn't room to get completely out of view when properly belted.
I have looked into the cockpits of many vintage WWII fighters. Yes, they are tight, but there is room. And with a modified racing plane, the canopy is even smaller than on a stock P-51. Even if the pilot is sitting fully upright in this racing plane, the only thing you'll see is his helmet. It doesn't take much forward head movement (especially under a 10g load) to make that helmet disappear from view. quote: Originally posted by mercsim: The photographer would seem to have been on the other side of the field shooting an airplane moving 500 mph or so.
If you think about it, most photographers there came with the intention of shooting planes moving at 500 mph. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 09-18-2011 08:51 PM
The photo in question was taken by professional photographer Tim O'Brien with the Grass Valley Union. You can see an interview with him about the photo(s) here. |
mercsim Member Posts: 219 From: Phoenix, AZ Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 09-19-2011 05:01 PM
Since posting I have had a chance to talk to some of the other race pilots and engineers. It seems the plane was flown with max nose down trim under race conditions. On previous race planes I have consulted on, the stab was re-trimmed to alleviate this. A consensus (of pilots and engineers witnessing the race) seems to be the trim tab fluttered as he passed through Rare Bear's wake. Since the plane carried all the down trim in race conditions, it pitched violently up when the tab departed. The consensus was probably 10-20 G's. Under that much loading, the seat belts will stretch causing the pilot to be out of view in the photos. Is was also discussed the pushrod to the tailwheel probably failed under the high G loading causing it to extend as seen in the photos. It's is still very interesting yet sad. I am corrected and better informed... |
Jay Chladek Member Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007
|
posted 09-20-2011 08:51 AM
At last check, the death toll was up to 10 as of Monday. Just a whole sad situation at work here.I understand there has also been some behind the scenes discussion about the location of the box seats, which are set up in an area where in years past, NOBODY could go on the flightline unless they were part of the aircraft prep crew (just the stands behind the flight line as normal). So, if it were like it was before the box seats were added and the accident happened exactly like it did, Leeward would have been the only fatality. Of course, I think in this case the plane was little more than an unguided missile anyway. Granted it did seem to end its roll and go wings level after a couple snap rolls, so perhaps he regained just enough consciousness to instinctively try to execute a pull up manuever, which kept the plane out of the grand stands themselves. But, by then it was too late to avoid the ground. I've been thinking about this whole incident since saturday and been torn emotionally. On one side, I love tinkerers and pilots who build air racers. The little tweaks that pilots do to their planes and engines is one of the spirits of innovation I love. But on the other hand, nothing really innovative has been done in air racing since the ill-fated Rutan designed Pond Racer. The concept behind that one was a valid one, do something new so warbirds and engines don't have to end up destroyed in the quest for speed. But it ended up in the desert like so many other planes. Nobody else has dared to push the boundary like that since. Looking at the rest of the field, it seems like nobody has really managed to build a better mousetrap air racer anymore as the designs that are good today are about the same ones that have been flying for almost two decades (Strega, Rare Bear, Dreadnaught, etc.). Indeed Galloping Ghost was first flown in the 1946 Cleveland Air Race (the one that Tex Johnson won in Cobra II). It has stayed a racer for many years, under different names and ownerships. Look at the planes today and they could probably compete almost dead even with their counterparts from three decades ago as the formula for success in an air race is exactly the same, brute power, reliability and a low drag airframe. As such, does it really need to continue like this? Should it continue like this? At the very least if Reno is going to do this again, the course likely will need to be placed further out from the stands and if people complain that they can't see it, put up a jumbotron TV to watch the close action or sell binoculars. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
|
posted 09-20-2011 10:04 AM
Related: There was also a crash at a West Virginia air show. The plane belonged to a pilot who was part of the Trojan Horsemen. Joe Edwards, a former shuttle pilot, flies with that group. |
ejectr Member Posts: 1751 From: Killingly, CT Registered: Mar 2002
|
posted 09-20-2011 06:19 PM
I saw an article today that says possibly the seat broke in the cockpit and that is why the pilot is not visible in the pictures. Quite possible the seat slid back and he grabbed the stick as it slid back causing the abrupt nose up attitude and snap roll to the right.With a harness holding him to the seat and a parachute on his back, it made it virtually impossible for him to get back forward to control the plane with stick and rudder. |
328KF Member Posts: 1234 From: Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 09-20-2011 09:46 PM
A slight variation on that theory I have read is that the floorboard may have collapsed under the G, taking the seat and pilot with it into the lower fuselage. This may have even affected control cables in that area. But, just a theory.It will take awhile for the investigators to figure this one out, but fortunately there is some transmitted flight data from the team, and there may be more, including cockpit video, on data cards recovered from the wreckage. These have all been sent to Washington for analysis. The photos are good evidence, but their sequence and timing are critical. Is the obvious damage to the trim tab the initiating event or was it caused by the high-speed dive following the pitch-up? On the possibility of the pilot taking evasive action...all of the photos I have seen so far appear to show the flight controls, particularly the elevator, neutral. I believe that the one photo (post-separation) shows the remaining tab "buzzing" or at least in some kind of motion which causes it to be blurred in the photo. An unbalanced surface buzzing like that would likely render the surface unresponsive to any pilot input. I agree with the above post that the box seat location is just a hindsight type of observation. That aircraft could have impacted anywhere, including directly into the grandstands instead of on the blacktop. The only way to avoid the risk to fans entirely is to not race at all. |
mjanovec Member Posts: 3811 From: Midwest, USA Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 09-21-2011 07:42 AM
quote: Originally posted by ejectr: Quite possible the seat slid back and he grabbed the stick as it slid back causing the abrupt nose up attitude and snap roll to the right.
That's possible, but the photo of the plane in the inverted position shows Leeward's helmet far forward in the cockpit, up by the instrument panel. When Bob Hannah lost his left elevator trim tab in 1998, he says he woke up from his blackout feeling a sandpaper-like substance with his hands. He discovered his hand were both touching the floorboards. He was unable to lift his head out of his lap until he managed to reach up and pulled the throttle back. By then, he was over 10,000 feet in altitude. It seems feasible the same happened to Leeward last Friday, except the plane looped over and dove into the ground. The fact the throttle appeared to be fully engaged suggests he hadn't woken up from his blackout. |
Glint Member Posts: 1040 From: New Windsor, Maryland USA Registered: Jan 2004
|
posted 09-21-2011 11:14 AM
Air & Space has an article about the crash. Article speculates that the trim tab may have been lost shortly before impact. |
albatron Member Posts: 2732 From: Stuart, Florida Registered: Jun 2000
|
posted 09-21-2011 11:57 AM
A well written article. It doesn't speculate very much as to the cause of the crash and for good reason.Way too early. Let the experts do their jobs. |
p51 Member Posts: 1642 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
|
posted 09-21-2011 09:22 PM
I finally heard from my pal who was at Reno. He would have been killed in that crash if he hadn’t decided to go buy a t-shirt for his little daughter! The plane came down right where he was sitting before the Mustang became a lawn dart. His daughter apparently didn’t understand why her daddy was holding her for so long when he got back home! quote: Originally posted by mercsim: I said there isn't room to get completely out of view when properly belted. I don't think you can get completely out of view even when not belted. I have been all around and in those kinds of planes and there just isn't that much room.
I've actually flown in several WW2 airplanes, including a P-51 (in the back seat where the extra fuel tank and radio set used to be, most Mustangs today have that second seat). There's about as much room in that cockpit as there is in many modern jet fighters (yes, I have the experience to make a comparison). You're strapped in to feel almost like part of the airplane, but it's not really claustrophobic at all. If we'd had a problem, the biggest worry I had would be for my camera bag getting in the way of the parachute as I jumped from the bird. That, and the canopy release lever was only with the pilot, so if he was knocked out, I would have a front row seat to a very ugly demise with nothing I could have done about it. The Warbird Information Exchange forum has a lot about this, and many of the members there are well in the know. |