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Author Topic:   "Classified" photographs of the Moon
Rizz
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posted 08-27-2002 04:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This should be interesting...

Forget the "moon hoaxers". This is out of their league and their comprehension.

Many people are unaware that the moon does rotate on its axis. (A full rotation of 29.9 days). At this rate, the moon shows approximately the same face towards the Earth for about 59% of it's surface. This is caused by the libration effect. Okay, enough science.

It is a fact that NASA has "hundreds" of images considered "CLASSIFIED" of various lunar mission imagery, as early as Ranger, the Lunar Orbiters 1-5 and including Apollo.

Later down the road Project Clementine came along and had an outstanding High Res camera on board that sent home some of the finest "CLASSIFIED" images you will probably never see. Clementine was used jointly by NASA and the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization to acquire these hi res images of the moon, front and back.

Some of the Apollo missions detected Moon geysers (along the eastern edge of the Sea of Storms for example) and Moon volcanoes. They reported seeing many different colors on the moons back side, while the centers of some of the craters "glowed".

Later missions observed and reported unexplained haze clouds and color flashes in and around the crater Aristarchus.

A lot of this information is available to those who seek it. In the February 1972 National Geographic they make mention of some of these findings.

I don't want to be too long winded on the matter, but I am curious to why "CLASSIFIED" images of the moon would even exist.

What could they possibly show?

Why don't they want us to see it?

I would like to know if anyone out there has any other thoughts or factual info regarding the glowing lights et al.

Perhaps the astronauts know something that we do not.

I am aware that some of the collectSPACE members have close ties and personal friendships with some of the Apollo heroes, and I fully respect that and all of the privacy and confidentiality that goes along with it.

Maybe you know something that we don't.

Maybe you can share it, maybe not.

This probably isn't the forum for such info or is it?

Kind thoughts and words are welcome, and appreciated.

Aloha from Volcano Central

Frank

Robert Pearlman
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posted 08-29-2002 06:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You've piqued my curiousity Frank.

Where did you see that a particular image (or set of images) was/were "classified"?

I thought sites like this one allowed public access to the images taken by Clementine. (Obviously, the task of making all 1.8 million images taken by Clementine available via the web would be a daunting task, but I cannot find reference to any of them being restricted access from the public.)

Rodina
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posted 08-29-2002 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rodina   Click Here to Email Rodina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert -

I don't know about Ranger (although we might not wanted the Soviets to know the limits of our technology - and a good photograph of an identifiable crater on the Moon would tell the Soviets just about -everything- about our space imaging technology).

Now, as for Clementine, it was heavily derived from SDI/BMD technology, so it is not beyond the pale that some data (particularly guidance data) may yet be classified.

I'd need some documentation to buy the story, but this isn't totally ludicrous, even if some of this may be out of context. (I doubt anything is still classified from Ranger, even if it was initially).

Rizz
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posted 08-29-2002 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I purchased many years ago from the National Air & Space Museum an Archival Video Laser Disc #6, with virtually every image taken of the moon beginning with Ranger, LO’s up to Apollo. There are a bazillion images.

I’ve been a photographer for over 30 years and decided to review these images, just out of curiosity, which over the last 10 years or so revealed some interesting findings.

The images are all annotated with mission ID, mag #’s and an image or frame #’ as well.

In a number of instances, there were a small series of sequential frames, which were intentionally deleted, and then continue with the sequence of numbers.
When I questioned the National Air & Space folks, they informed me that the images on the disc were only the “unclassified images” released to the public.

That’s what sparked my curiosity.

Additionally, I found that in some of the frames either immediately before or after the missing frames, there appear to be anomalies. Strange lighting, like a haze or vapor or clouds in some instances.

There are quite a few images from Apollo, that are “unclassified” that reveal some interesting observations worth looking at. As soon as I get a chance, I will post the NASA ID #’s of a few of the unclassified ones available to the public. It will be difficult for me to pull the images off of the laser disc, but I have the #’s written down.

More soon. And thanks for the interest.

Frank

Rizz
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posted 08-29-2002 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I purchased the Video Disc, I had to special order the “index” or table of contents separately. When it arrived, there was a notice stating that the index photo #’s correlating to the actual video images were inadvertantly offset by 60 frames, which made identifying the images a bit more challenging. (not to mention typo's)

Try to locate these images. Hopefully they are the same ones I’m referring to on the disc. These are the NASA #'s

These are only a few unclassified from Apollo that in my opinion are interesting:

  • AS 11-37-5438 and 36
  • AS 11-42-6334
  • AS 12-54-8118
  • AS 12-49-7319 and 20
  • AS 12-51-7553
  • AS 13-60-8622
  • AS 14-80-10439 (I need to double check this #)

Rizz
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posted 08-29-2002 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Check out NASA photo LO V. # 67-H-1135.

Rizz
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posted 11-19-2002 09:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, Ive been able to locate some of the images I've mentioned in the above posts.

Because of all the processing, "these" images should not be used for research purposes. They should only be used to select and identify images for use in a research project. Higher resolution products should be obtained for use in any scientific investigation.

Ben
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posted 11-19-2002 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ben   Click Here to Email Ben     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They look like camera artifacts to me. I have had some very similar things happen on photos. Radiation can affect film, that may be it.

In regards to the comparison, NASA may have cleaned up some images to make them look good.

WAWalsh
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posted 11-20-2002 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WAWalsh   Click Here to Email WAWalsh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rizz, you have lost me with this one. Are you suggesting that the Moon has active volcanic activity at this time with lava flows and geysers and that NASA and the federal government has covered this information up?

I suspect the reason for any classified labeling, as already indicated, arose from a desire to hide the ability of the technology and had nothing to do with a dead sphere.

Rizz
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posted 11-20-2002 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ben – many of the anomalies can indeed be camera artifacts, but there seem to be other images that clearly show something else creating an image on the film.

As I’ve stated before, the fact that many of the early images, including Apollo, are considered ”Classified”, and that’s what made me curious. What would make them classified?

Certainly Apollo didn’t have the Hi Res ability in the 60’s. Images were selected to be removed and labeled classified for a reason. I’m just REAL curious as to why.

WAWalsh, as far as Clementines Hi Res imagery, yes I agree that many of those images are probably classified because they reveal the capability of the recording sensors.

Remember it was Clementine that confirmed the presence of water on the moon in ‘94, something that a number of people speculated decades before.

Also, I am not suggesting that NASA or the government are covering up activity such as geysers or what appear to be vapor clouds on the moon, because they have been reported, photographed and documented. They are just not talking about it.

Additionally, there have been flashes of light and other anomalies that some of the Apollo astros have seen. My guess would be that it could very well be some sort of ‘volcanic activity’ on the moon.

Please refer to the opening post.

Again, I’m going on factual info obtained from NASA including mission reports and dialogue.

Please understand that this topic is directed towards everyone who has an open and inquisitive mind. Sort of like going ‘outside the box’ or drifting away from their ‘comfort zone’ for a while.

I’m not calling it a conspiracy at all, nor am I suggesting any explanations. It’s just an opportunity to have an open academic dialogue where anyone can participate and comment on.

Thanks for the interest and comments.

Rizz

Robert Pearlman
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posted 11-20-2002 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Frank,

I may be mistaken, but from reading your posts, it seems that the only mention of classfied Apollo images is your assumption that a) the Air and Space rep you spoke with knew what he/she was talking about and b) that the labeling of images as unclassified implies that classified images exist. I'm not saying that either of these assumptions are incorrect but I would be curious if you have been able to find any official document that labeled particular images as classified.

Ben
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posted 11-20-2002 03:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ben   Click Here to Email Ben     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yea, I really have not seen any photos... or descriptions, citing 'classified moon photos'.

Hmm... maybe the moon really IS made of green cheese!

Rizz
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posted 11-20-2002 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll research it further and report back.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 11-20-2002 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rizz, if I can stick my two cents worth in. Whilst I may sell cameras these days, I was trained as a photographer in the late 70's and indeed worked as a professional for several years before taking up my present profession.

Having looked at the examples listed on a previous post I can think of a number of technical reasons common in photography for most if not all of the images; from lens flare and reflections to anomalies in processing.

I would hazard a guess that the very fact this discussion is taking place IS the reason for the "classified status" of some of the pictures. Whilst we can have an intelligent and informed discussion on the topic there are many out there who would not or could not; rather would use every day, common or garden photographic effects as the basis for UFO stories or dare I say it hoax moon landing conspiracies. Just ask Buzz Aldrin's friend...

A classic example of this is the famous shot of Charlie Duke along side the LRV with the famous "C" rock in the foreground. Often sited and as proof of a stage prop, left in frame in error when in fact it is simply a hair or spec that has become stuck to one of the various generation copies of the original image. A common problem as anybody who processes their own films at home will testify.

Regards,

Rick.

WAWalsh
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posted 11-20-2002 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WAWalsh   Click Here to Email WAWalsh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually Ben, I thought Bill Anders resolved that point and confirmed it was made of American cheese.

Back on Rizz's topic, while the words are not there, the essence is certainly cover-up through omission. There is an implied accusation of scientific dishonesty. NASA has probably published 25 or so reports, plus annual updates, over the past 30 years on the findings and results from the Apollo missions. To suggest that eye witness observations, complimented through photographic evidence, exist, but have never been made public and has been wholly ignored for these reports directly accuses NASA of withholding information. Is it possible that such information exists and has been buried; I suppose that this is possible. The probability of this statistically, however, is 0+ at best.

I am unaware of any Apollo astronaut reporting seeing an active geyser or volcano on the Moon. I am, however, happy to be correct on that. Likewise, I have not seen any report suggesting that the Moon is little more than an inert rock at this stage in its life, but certainly it is possible that a molten core exists there. Either way, I would appreciate a citation to the astronaut observations so that I can see them in context.

As the the one example of the hair on the negative suggests, other explanations exist that are more plausible. I am currently working through Hamisg Lindsay's "Tracking Apollo to the Moon." He tells of a time when the Australian switchboards lit up with calls from people reporting UFOs flying around Canberra. It ended up that the lights moving back and forth came from the plane flying back and forth to conduct the first night test of the facility at Honeysuckle Creek.

I am happy to think "outside of the box" (one of the more abused cliches of the past few years) with respect to an actively volcanic Moon, I am simply unaware of any evidence that supports the idea. The pictures for which you provided a link do not seem to add to the idea based on my view of them (e.g., the fifth photo with the potential "haze" 50 miles or so (gross estimate) over the lunar surface, strikes me as a reflection caught in the lens from the Sun reflecting off the CSM's (or LM's) window, rather than an atmospheric event).

Rizz
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posted 11-20-2002 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Rick & WAWalsh.

I will locate and provide the info as requested. It will take a little time, but I can certainly address the geyers and haze observations from lunar orbit.

uzzi69
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posted 11-20-2002 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for uzzi69   Click Here to Email uzzi69     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread reminds me of a book that I read as a young teenager in the eary 70's... I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the book, or the author... but from various fuzzy NASA photos of the moon, he pointed out dust lifted up by what he called "construction". He explained that some type of construction was going on in various craters on the Moon by someone "unknown". I ate these books up along with the UFO books that flooded the market, at the time.

But on a more serious note, It would be interesting to find out that something yet undiscovered was actually going on there.

Regards, Bill uzzi69

Rizz
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posted 11-21-2002 03:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This isn’t what I was looking for although it is relevant. On October 16, 1971, a UPI press release from Houston headlined the world’s newspapers. “Water clouds have been detected on the moon”. The water clouds were erupting like geysers through cracks on the lunar surface proving that the moon is not a dead and inactive place.

WAWalsh - It wasn't the astronauts, but their instruments left on the lunar surface of Apollo 12 & 14 which detected the geysers. The water cloud covered an area of more than 10 square miles on the eastern edge of The Ocean of Storms.

An interesting article released by NASA was the experiences of Apollo 10. Again UPI on May 22, 1969, stated: Orbiting at only 69 miles above the moon, astronaut Stafford spotted 2 volcanoes. One of them was white on the outside, and black on the top. They also reported seeing many different colors on the moons backside, while the centers of some of the craters glow. “They just glow in the lunar night,” stated astronaut Cernan.

In the February issue of National Geographic Magazine, full reports of the experiences of Apollo 15 were presented. On page 245 it states that the moon has a magnetic field and it does have an atmosphere, although an exceedingly thin one. Apollo 12 & 14 instruments reported lunar quakes and water vapor. (Apollo Superthermal Ion Detectors).

On page 250 it was reported that A15 astros observed a series of small volcanic cones producing evidence of gases coming from the moons interior. This particular sighting was made in the Littrow crater.

On page 252, it states that the astros reported unexplained haze clouds and color flashes in and around the crater Aritarchus.

There really is a lot of documented information about lunar quakes, geysers, haze clouds and flashes of light.

It's all very interesting. The more you find out, the more questions that arise.

Hope this helps.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 11-21-2002 07:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On your last point, an answer is easy: future generations. Humans have been leaving historical markers for centuries -- the most basic being gravestones (if your family presumeably knows where you are buried, why is a marker necessary?). Most towns have similar markers establishing when they were founded.

On your other points, astronauts were trained, but they are far from geological experts (with the notable exception of Jack Schmitt). Perhaps most of these quesitons would be dismissed if we had sent more scientists to the Moon.

I would suggest, for sake of a scholarly discussion, that you limit your sources to peer review publications, i.e. Science, Nature, etc. These publications will not print an article or study until other scientists in the field verify the science presented within.

At least then, without the benefit of our own peer review board here, we know that the results being presented have at least been verified by more than the advocate.

Rizz
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posted 11-21-2002 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My apologies. I thought National Geographic was a pretty well respected factual magazine.

The information they presented came from NASA.

It wasn't the source I was looking for, I thought it was a place to go to get some additional insight.

Seismic equipment was placed on the moon for a reason, and they have recorded 'moon quakes'.

I spoke with a number of people who have access to archived Apollo images, getting back to the other issue of 'missing photos' and apparently, according to some of the old timers, some images were never shown to the public. They were not 'relevant'. ie Camera went off by mistake, perhaps a couple of naked astros shot by other crew members, other images grossly out of focus...etc.

No one that I was able to reach was able to confirm or deny any classified images existed.

Having said that, I am happy to end this thread, and I'll limit my posts to much less controversial topics in the future.

Aloha,

Rizz

Robert Pearlman
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posted 11-21-2002 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Discussions like these are just fine, Rizz -- but if you open topics that you believe to be controversial, you should be ready for some debate.

Citing articles that are 30-40 years old, while certainly a data point, really don't move the conversation forward either. I can show you articles from that same time period that cite countless scientific errors -- not because the author or publication was faulty but because our understanding has changed since.

Certainly the topic of lunar quakes and geysers couldn't have completely dried up (pun intended) 40 years ago or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Can anyone cite a current scientific study on the subject published within, say, the last year?

Rizz
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posted 11-21-2002 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert – you are correct, there were countless errors. Thats what science is all about. Seeking the truth. The more we learn, the farther along we progress.

I’m not quite sure that a recently published scientific study about quakes and geysers on the moon exists. Surely the folks at NASA who are in charge of recording data of the seismic activity, (if in fact the equipment left up there is still operational), would be aware of any and all activity.

I don’t follow your thought about citing 30-40 year old articles as not making the conversation move forward. If the old info (scientist claim during the early Apollo missions ‘no water on the moon’) becomes obsolete by factual information (water on the moon detected by rust in A17 samples for example, or even Clementines data) doesn’t that stand alone as the most accurate data to date? It might be old info, but it has changed the way scientists look at the moon. I might be missing something. Please clarify.

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