posted 07-03-2001 09:05 PM               

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.

Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America.

The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't.

So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.

Remember: freedom is never free!

For liberty,
Wayne Edelman

posted 07-04-2001 11:10 AM               

The Historical perspective gets lost over the years. When the colonies took up arms, they didn't know if they were going to win the war or not. 226 years (fighting started in 1775) later we forget the uphill battle they faced with uncertain future. Yet they took the steps despite their personal risks.

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Warm Regards

Douglas Henry

posted 07-04-2001 01:47 PM               

I've been fascinated with history in my adult years. Truth is truly stranger than fiction. One of the facts that stuck in my mind from the Revolution is that Benedict Arnold was our greatest general during the war until he turned traitor. Yet we only remember his betrayal of West Point & subsequent events. Or William Dawes, largely forgotten. He was the other rider with Paul Revere (sp?). Revere was quickly captured, while Dawes rode on to succesfully get the word out that "The British are coming!"

George Washington lost 25 battles in a row against the British regulars, only finally winning at York (now called Yorktown). Washington's greatest victory was keeping the Continental Army as a viable fighting force for 8 years of war against the greatest military power on Earth, including 2 years after Cornwallis surrendered. He figured it was better to negotiate in strength.

Washington was the first general in history to refuse the reins of power after winning a revolution. He could have been king. He talked his own military commanders into backing the young Congress instead of wresting power for themselves. Washington defined greatness. Look at what we see around the world when revolutions occur to win freedom, then the generals take the power for their own.

Of course my greatest interest has been the Civil War, the bloodiest conflict in American history. As an adolescent I toured many of the battlefields with my parents, stirring my lifelong interests. Seeing things like the cornfield at Gettysburg, the stone wall at Fredricsburg (sp?), the bluffs at Vicksburg, and General Lee's homesite, what is now Arlington National Cemetery.

Arlington always brings a tear. When you find out that the Union general in charge of finding a final resting place for thousands of Civil War dead choose the Lee plantation. Then he buried his own son in what had been Mrs. Lee's rose garden so that the Lee's could see the results of the war when they returned home. Of course the Lee's never returned to their former home, in fact never saw it again.

The Civil War is filled with thousands of similar tragic stories. Reading about the bad along with the good reminds us that while men often do glorious things, there is no glory in war. Ask any veteran.

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Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli)

"Take sides! Always take sides! You will sometimes be wrong, but the man who refuses to take sides must ALWAYS be wrong...let us stand up and be counted." Robert A. Heinlein

posted 07-04-2001 02:42 PM               

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Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli)

posted 07-04-2001 03:24 PM               

It is also apparently incorrect. (A tip of the hat to Bob McLeod for first bringing this to my attention).

E. Brooke Harlowe, an Asst. Prof. and Coordinator, Intl Studies major/minor, Dept. of Political Science, Susquehanna University wrote a rebuttal to this piece which can be read here:
http://www.ctssar.org/articles/price_paid.htm

posted 07-04-2001 04:29 PM               

As I mentioned in another forum we can't go to the original witnesses to verify the facts we reported. I do stand by our piece, it's been published in many venues. I don't pretend to be a historian, just well read. It could be we're wrong on an item or two but I support the piece as a whole.

Anyway the right to debate like this was one of the rights won by our Founding Fathers.

Here's an item to scare anyone. A majority of Americans recently polled supported abridging the 1st Amendment saying that free speech is giving rise to many ideas they don't agree with therefore needs to be limited. Hogwash!

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Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli)

posted 07-04-2001 04:42 PM               

That said, I would curious to hear of your sources. Your post (and subsequent debate in the other forum) has piqued my curiousity.

As you say, the signees are no longer alive to offer their perspective. So goes the study of history.

posted 07-04-2001 06:40 PM               

I was quite taken with your piece on the "Signers" and was going to send you a message of appreciation. Frankly, I am an avid reader on the subject of the colonial period and the revolution (would have majored in history or art if I could have seen a way to earn a decent living at either when I started college at 16) and was a bit taken aback by a few of your statements, but the whole was so effective, who wants to nitpick?

Then along comes Mr. Pearlman's well-researched rebutal and your reply and I'm starting to feel uneasy. In your first posting you claimed no credit for authorship, nor did you credit anyone else, de facto then you are claiming authorship. Mr. Pearlman raises the question of who actually wrote it; now you credit three others besides yourself. Why, sir, didn't you credit the three others the first time around, without having it forced out of you by Mr. Pearlman? It would have no way lessened our appreciation of the writing and of your posting it; the approach you have taken of first denying these others credit cheapens you in the eyes of the readers.

As a writer who has been published many times since the 60s, most recently just this past week, I know how important crediting your sources, or contributors, can be. I hope we now have reached the truth in this matter, and am glad Mr. Pearlman clarified some of the shadings of meanings from your original piece.

It's a shame when a piece largely contributed to prompt us all to remember why we celebrate this holiday--the sacrifices made by so many to give us the greatest, most free society ever in the history of mankind--has to get buried in controversy.

Doc

posted 07-04-2001 07:21 PM               

I have never publically talked about it's authors before because for one, my part was small in the writing of the piece...just research. I never cared about any credit (nor did the other three) as the point was to inspire American's to explore their history. This item was printed originally to hand out at rallies & such, & since has taken a life of it's own. The modern Sons of Liberty (I'm one of it's four founders) never cared about such, as the issue was the important thing, not who authored it.

Then as we gathered steam & we put out position papers concerning individual items for discussion, they were footnoted with sources when possible, but often were personal opinion pieces. With these the author (usually Marvin Gardner) did take credit.

I have recently come to disagree with certain positions & viewpoints within SoL and no longer actively participate though I am still one of it's directors, at least on paper. I'm still proud of our minor achievements. SoL had tremendous respect within the halls of Congress.

Here's one that might surprise a few.

SoL is the group that initiated the 1994 Veteran's Day protest of Bill Clinton. When Clinton was laying a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier we asked all vets present to turn their backs to him...about half did & it made the national news. But as with this flag waving paper on the Revolution, we took no credit. In that case we let the Vets get the attention they deserved not the small group of patriots who promoted the protest.

We never pretended to be historians, we don't care about who wrote what, we were just excited about a small group of individuals who at that time had never met face to face, making our voices heard. During the Clinton era, especially early in his term, we took big strides forward. Then as the American public turned back to their beer & TV we became disenchanted. But the early days of SoL were an exciting time.

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Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli)

posted 07-04-2001 07:41 PM               

With all due respect, something doesn't add up. A version of the essay you say you researched 15 years ago, was published in Paul Harvey's book in 1956.

"Myths about the Founders persist" by David Daley of the Hartford Courant (written for last year's July 4th) summarizes its history:

quote:

---

The tale dates back at least five decades. James Elbrecht of Schenectady, N.Y., whose Signer's Index Web site provides the most thorough account of the myth's history, traces it back at least as far as 1956, when Harvey published it in his book, "The Rest of the Story." Its popularity led Harvey to reprint the tale on its own in 1975 in a pamphlet called "Our Lives, Our Fortunes, Our Sacred Honor."

[Rush] Limbaugh's father wrote a similar, especially engaging essay that his son touts regularly on July Fourth. That essay has been reprinted by the Daughters of the American Revolution and appears on Limbaugh's official Web site, RushLimbaugh.com. Limbaugh has suggested on air that his dad inspired Harvey. (Harvey's office didn't return calls seeking comment.)

Those two accounts, and all their errors, have been magnified and plagiarized over the years, but never as they have in the past 10 days.

---

The full piece can be read here: http://www.s-t.com/daily/07-00/07-18-00/a15sr072.htm

Wayne, I am not claiming you personally plagarized. Could it be possible though, that a member of your group decided this was a convenient way to incite the troops without informing you or the others?

posted 07-04-2001 08:16 PM               

For the past several hours, I have read more about the Declaration of Independence than I have in my entire life to date. It has been an enjoyable and educational activity appropriately conducted on the day we celebrate our independence.

In the effort to be productive as opposed to simply being argumentative, I submit the following rewrite of Wayne's essay which cites its sources and tries to capture the same elegance of the original.

From: http://www.heritage.org/library/backgrounder/bg1451.html

A NOTE ON THE SIGNERS OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

"...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

(Each year information about those who signed the Declaration of Independence is circulated, not all of which is accurate. The following note is based on research in several established sources, which are noted below.)

Fifty-six individuals from each of the original 13 colonies participated in the Second Continental Congress and signed the Declaration of Independence. Pennsylvania sent nine delegates to the congress, followed by Virginia with seven and Massachusetts and New Jersey with five. Connecticut, Maryland, New York, and South Carolina each sent four delegates. Delaware, Georgia, New Hampshire, and North Carolina each sent three. Rhode Island, the smallest colony, sent only two delegates to Philadelphia.

Nine of the signers were immigrants, two were brothers, two were cousins, and one was an orphan. The average age of a signer was 45. The oldest delegate was Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania, who was 70 when he signed the Declaration. The youngest was Thomas Lynch, Jr., of South Carolina, who was 27.

Eighteen of the signers were merchants or businessmen, 14 were farmers, and four were doctors. Forty-two signers had served in their colonial legislatures. Twenty-two were lawyers--although William Hooper of North Carolina was "disbarred" when he spoke out against the Crown--and nine were judges. Stephen Hopkins had been Governor of Rhode Island.

Although two others had been clergy previously, John Witherspoon of New Jersey was the only active clergyman to attend--he wore his pontificals to the sessions. Almost all were Protestant Christians; Charles Carroll of Maryland was the only Roman Catholic signer.

Seven of the signers were educated at Harvard, four each at Yale and William & Mary, and three at Princeton. John Witherspoon was the president of Princeton and George Wythe was a professor at William & Mary, where his students included the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson.

Seventeen of the signers served in the military during the American Revolution. Thomas Nelson was a colonel in the Second Virginia Regiment and then commanded Virginia military forces at the Battle of Yorktown. William Whipple served with the New Hampshire militia and was one of the commanding officers in the decisive Saratoga campaign. Oliver Wolcott led the Connecticut regiments sent for the defense of New York and commanded a brigade of militia that took part in the defeat of General Burgoyne. Caesar Rodney was a Major General in the Delaware militia and John Hancock was the same in the Massachusetts militia.

Five of the signers were captured by the British during the war. Captains Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, and Arthur Middleton (South Carolina) were all captured at the Battle of Charleston in 1780; Colonel George Walton was wounded and captured at the Battle of Savannah. Richard Stockton of New Jersey never recovered from his incarceration at the hands of British Loyalists and died in 1781.

Colonel Thomas McKean of Delaware wrote John Adams that he was "hunted like a fox by the enemy--compelled to remove my family five times in a few months, and at last fixed them in a little log house on the banks of the Susquehanna . . . and they were soon obliged to move again on account of the incursions of the Indians." Abraham Clark of New Jersey had two of his sons captured by the British during the war. The son of John Witherspoon, a major in the New Jersey Brigade, was killed at the Battle of Germantown.

Eleven signers had their homes and property destroyed. Francis Lewis's New York home was destroyed and his wife was taken prisoner. John Hart's farm and mills were destroyed when the British invaded New Jersey and he died while fleeing capture. Carter Braxton and Thomas Nelson (both of Virginia) lent large sums of their personal fortunes to support the war effort, but were never repaid.

Fifteen of the signers participated in their states' constitutional conventions, and six--Roger Sherman, Robert Morris, Benjamin Franklin, George Clymer, James Wilson, and George Reed--signed the United States Constitution. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts attended the federal convention and, though he later supported the document, refused to sign the Constitution.

After the Revolution, 13 of the signers went on to become governors, and 18 served in their state legislatures. Sixteen became state and federal judges. Seven became members of the United States House of Representatives, and six became United States Senators. James Wilson and Samuel Chase became Justices of the United States Supreme Court.

Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Elbridge Gerry each became Vice President, and John Adams and Thomas Jefferson became President. The sons of signers John Adams and Benjamin Harrison also became Presidents.

Five signers played major roles in the establishment of colleges and universities: Benjamin Franklin and the University of Pennsylvania; Thomas Jefferson and the University of Virginia; Benjamin Rush and Dickinson College; Lewis Morris and New York University; and George Walton and the University of Georgia.

John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Charles Carroll were the longest surviving signers. Adams and Jefferson both died on July 4, 1826, the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. Charles Carroll of Maryland was the last signer to die--in 1832 at the age of 95.

posted 07-05-2001 12:24 AM               

You say that you and the others weren't looking for credit as the authors, etc., etc. Maybe so, but when you publish something on a website without attribution, readers automatically assume you are the writer, you know that, so let's stop kidding each other.

To the other side of the coin, does anyone remember the little cards that came out after Kennedy was shot, pointing out the similarities; Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy, Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln, etc.? Someone had to dream that one up, but after it started to appear other folks added additional similarities to the list, and some people started their own list simply by hearing someoe say, "did you hear all the similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy?". Many of the items that appeared on these independent lists were the same as those that appeared on the initial list, not because they were plagarized, but because they were logical.

THe Signers topic may have been addressed by other writers, even long before Paul Harvey. Isn't it a logical question to have been asked, say in 1826, as the topic for 4th of July orations? I'd bet if we dug deep enough into speeches by famous, and not so famous, orators we'd find all sorts of allusions to this topic, and there doesn't seem anything terribly unique about the approach Mr. Edelman et al adopted, it's simple and straightforward, and could logically have occured to many history buffs over the last two centuries.

Not a lot different really than saying, "What ever happened to the '55 Dodgers, the only time Brooklyn won the World Series?" There have been any number of lists and articles with a line or two about each menber of that special team, and they weren't exactly plagarized. After all stating that Joe Black spent a number of years as a security guard isn't exactly creative journalisn, it's just a simple fact. And so it is with Mr. Edelman's piece, a simple list of statements, some accurate, some not, written in the plainest of styles.

What amazes me is how fast Mr. Pearlman researched and organized his facts; job well done. Many thanks.

posted 07-05-2001 02:54 AM               

Wayne, I apologize if any of my comments were hurtful. I know that your heart was in the right place by starting this topic and as I stated in an earlier post, I am grateful for the inspiration our debate provided to explore the history of our country.

posted 07-05-2001 08:12 AM               

Tom Edmonds

posted 07-05-2001 04:26 PM               

Dr. Hanson I do take your point about authorship, but as I actually had a hand in this (or thought I did...I did do research) and many more papers with the Sons of Liberty, an organization I helped found, I do consider myself as an author of them. The thought that I wasn't the only writer never came to mind as we put out these as SoL papers. I will always take pride in our accomplishments. And when things are attributed to my (yes mine) group I (rightly I think) take credit. I will in the future be more careful.

That all said it sure puts a damper on what I thought was a positive piece.

Robert I thank you for being direct & I take NO offense and hope you take none of me. We are poles apart on most issues, but we've always managed to remain civil and be friends, something that has failed in my debates with a few others. Let's end this thread & take it off list for other questions. I thought of deleting it as I started this thread, but then some might think Robert did.

It's not my first, nor will it be my last mistake. But I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong.

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Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli)

"Take sides! Always take sides! You will sometimes be wrong, but the man who refuses to take sides must ALWAYS be wrong...let us stand up and be counted." Robert A. Heinlein

[This message has been edited by astronut (edited July 05, 2001).]

posted 07-05-2001 04:50 PM               

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Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli)