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Author
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Topic: Beware: Ebay #496393636 Von Braun
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apollo11lem5@aol.com
unregistered
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posted 11-12-2000 09:26 PM
 
Hello All...First the Caveats.The opinion expressed here is mine.I am not an expert but this is my OPINION.The item mentioned above appears to be a printed 8x10 that was given out in the thousands by NASA.This is not a fake nor is it autopen.It is a pre-printed item.I have a friend that has 100 of these and I have 5 myself.They were given out for free at the Canaveral Air Station for free not long ago.It appears to be a great item but beware.It is true that there certainly is an original of this picture somewhere.My copies and the 100 that my friend has are an exact match for the one on Ebay.I am not in any way saying that the seller knows but niether do I wish to see hard earned money being spent for an item that appears real and most likely is not.I urge extreme caution.There is an extremely small chance that this is the original but personally....I doubt it !! It is printed on a very heavy grade of paper (almost a cardboard).It is a great reference item and is attractive in it's own right but bid accordingly.This is my opinion.Bid with great care and use caution !!...Donald Brady |
albatron@aol.com
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posted 11-22-2000 11:35 PM
 
Hiya Don,Sorry its taken me so long to reply to this, I haven't been here or on eBay for some time. I was VERY disappointed to see this piece go for so much, as I totally agree with you regarding its true form. Yes I have seen this preprinted piece before. It is so sad people do not avail themselves of the many resources before spending that much money. All I can say is, I do hope the dealer sold it in good faith BELIEVING it was real, but I would question his abilities as an "autograph expert". Hopefully he reacted well if you had conversation with him, and did not do the standard childish response. Best, Al |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1744
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 11-23-2000 08:03 PM
I have contacted the eBay winner of this
"questionable" photo & he is understandably
disturbed. He contacted the seller & the seller took a hard line & it looks like the bidder will have to accept the photo. Then he will try to
determine if it is a reproduction &, if it is, hope the seller
will refund his money for selling a reproduction of a signed photo that he misrepresented as genuine. I'll post any news along these lines. We can
only wish the buyer the best in trying to get
his money back if the photo proves to be a repro. Hopefully, this story will have a happy ending. Bob Mc. |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-26-2000 12:17 PM
ALBATRON, you are disappointed you don't have it in your possesion to sell. Ha the laughs on me..I still got it in my Museum and the $400 is really just chump change because of the amount of other items we sell succesfully on ebay with out the So Called Experts like you. John quote:
Originally posted by albatron@aol.com:
Hiya Don,Sorry its taken me so long to reply to this, I haven't been here or on eBay for some time. I was VERY disappointed to see this piece go for so much, as I totally agree with you regarding its true form. Yes I have seen this preprinted piece before. It is so sad people do not avail themselves of the many resources before spending that much money. All I can say is, I do hope the dealer sold it in good faith BELIEVING it was real, but I would question his abilities as an "autograph expert". Hopefully he reacted well if you had conversation with him, and did not do the standard childish response. Best, Al
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rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-26-2000 12:23 PM
Bob you are again like most of you on this board..DEAD WRONG! I did in fact tell the buyer the truth at that time..I just know where it came from! I have since, due to all the BROO HA HA from you folks, refused to accept his money..keeping the outstanding actual picture in MY Museum..applying to eBay for credit and forwarding all email and posts in reference to this item to them! Later John quote:
Originally posted by Bob M:
I have contacted the eBay winner of this
"questionable" photo & he is understandably
disturbed. He contacted the seller & the seller took a hard line & it looks like the bidder will have to accept the photo. Then he will try to
determine if it is a reproduction &, if it is, hope the seller
will refund his money for selling a reproduction of a signed photo that he misrepresented as genuine. I'll post any news along these lines. We can
only wish the buyer the best in trying to get
his money back if the photo proves to be a repro. Hopefully, this story will have a happy ending. Bob Mc.
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Dan Lorraine
Member Posts: 373
From: Cranston, R.I.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-26-2000 12:32 PM
.... his museum???!!
I checked out the items he's selling from the so-called "estate" sales .... up here in New England we call them junk sales, or garage sales, or just throw the stuff away. No wonder John's so mad that someone tipped off the buyer ... he though he hit the "Holy Grail" at $400!!! Boy, the world's full of them!!!
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-26-2000 12:45 PM
John --You can hang a reproduction in your Museum if you so choose, but I would think you would want to know the history behind the pieces you own. How can you vouch for the authenticity of this piece when in your own auction description you admit you cannot identify all the signatures on the photo? For all you know, the fifth signature could be a complete fake, yet you stake your reputation on its authenticity. Now as it happens, of the five on the photo (and yes, I know the identity of the fifth) only one is still with us: Dr. George Mueller. I will contact Mueller and ask him about this particular photo and inquire from the source about the location of the original. John, if he replies with information that negates any chance that yours is an original, will you post an apology? [This message has been edited by Robert Pearlman (edited November 26, 2000).] |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-26-2000 01:31 PM
PEARMAN absoutly not on any apoligies to you or anyone on this board! In the reverse I think tons of apoligies are due me! FYI this email was received by me on 11/15. Hallo hilltop, just for your information: the "unknown" man in the middle of the picture is
Dr. Kurth Debus a german scientist. Wishing you a good selling ! Greetings from Germany Peter Müller
As you may notice I did not add to the item description..just let it play out! I think that shows my honesty in all eBay matters..not just little mickey mouse copy or
gave away item at Canaveral several years ago as you and your minions see it. Should you continue to doubt my honesty in this matter I will gladly either post the entire email or forward you a copy for you to review as an actual email received by me of which you probably also doubt!
John |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-26-2000 01:39 PM
Oh and by the way, I do know the history of the item. It can be found at http://www.romancearkansas.com/RILEY.html Been there since July and you should have been around when we sold lots of BOEING and space program collectable stuff. For your information we have sold over $3000 from this auction alone..every high bidder was extremly pleased as our eBay feedback will indicate.
Now how about your apology. John |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-26-2000 01:46 PM
John --I do not doubt that you received the above e-mail. No need to prove otherwise. However, other than illustrating that you learned after authenticating this piece the identity of the firth individual I do not know how this negates the possibility that this was a reprint. I have e-mailed George Mueller and if he chooses to reply, I will post his response (paraphrased, unless he gives me permission to reprint) here. John, I will apologize to you (and encourage others to do the same) if I am proven wrong. But if I am proven right, I will forward this entire exchange to eBay's Safe Harbor. You leave me no other choice as you refuse to admit that you are willing to learn of your (possible) mistakes and therefore are more than likely to repeat this behavior in the future. - Robert By the way, did you happen to take the opportunity to learn what each of these gentlemen were responsible for, or were you just interested in the sale? Just curious... |
Russ Still
Member Posts: 535
From: Atlanta, GA USA
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-26-2000 02:11 PM
I would like to know why John believes any of us owe HIM an apology. He's the one who misrepresented the item by placing it into the Autographs category. And he's the one who failed to tell the winning bidder that there had been questions raised until after he had the bidder's money.So John, be specific. What do we owe you an apology for? |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-26-2000 03:01 PM
PEARLMAN AND STILL..if I were just interested in the money I would have received it..which as of today I have not!..cashed the mo suppodesly coming from BidPay..and let whatever happens fly! But No rather just keep
it here in little Rosebud Arkansas. As to catagories on eBay I think I have much more experience in that matter than you all..in fack have run several email search for some of the email addresses here and have yet to find anyone registered on ebay with these address's..hum wonder why? So now I'm outa here because of much better things to do and BTW I'm not the least bit worried about Safe Harbor..as I go I will leave you another interesting Estate Auction we went to and I have tons of "SPACE COLLECTABLES" we will be putting on eBay later for you EXPERTS to trash around and wish you had some of it! We have already sold several thousand dollars of it with probably that much more to go! Little old Arkansas is full of good stuff to offer on eBay and w do a pretty good job. Never been too interested in Space stuff over the years..still not, but that may change as our full time job is eBay sales. Lots of fun and a real decent living without a job!The webpage is
http://www.fortmiro.com/colsmith.html John |
thecollector
Member Posts: 216
From: West TN, USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-26-2000 04:40 PM
John, in defense of Robert and Russ, have YOU ever published a well-selling book on space autographs and collecting like Russ. Do you moderate a website with this many experenced LOYAL users, do people turn to YOU for autograph evaluation? I don't think so. |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-26-2000 05:35 PM
THECOLLECTOR..quite an excellent eBay feedback you have..Im impressed! John |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-26-2000 06:14 PM
John,
Your petty threats will go nowhere in this forum. Some of the folks that have tried to inform you about the von Braun are some of the largest and most respected collectors of space memorabilia on Earth. You calling and making threatening remarks to Don is despicable. BTW my ebay ID is heinlein56...go look at my feedback rating. Not a negative or even neutral one in over 380. I would trust Don, Russ, or Robert on a business deal worth tens of thousands of dollars on an email handshake alone, as they would me. Can your customers say that? ------------------
Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
c]:-) |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-26-2000 09:48 PM
I might say Edleman yours is better than the collector, or the email address which is registered here with this user, maybe a mistake but I dont think so, that is a -5 and NARU'D which is public record on the auction site! I may listen to you if you knew
all about this other than what you have been told by our friend Donald Brady and others. I may tho have a couple of questions about your ad content and your ebay user ID? JohnJohn |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-26-2000 09:59 PM
John,
Ask away I have nothing to hide...DO YOU!!If Don Brady, a man whos been collecting all sorts of space memorabilia for more than 30 years, and knows many former & current astronauts personally says a thing is so you can bet on it. Could he be mistaken on an individual item, sure he's not perfect, as he said in the first post in this thread. You obviously are not informed as to the tremendous respect long time collectors like Don Brady have worldwide. That makes me doubt whether you really know a thing about our field of collecting. ------------------
Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
c]:-) |
thecollector
Member Posts: 216
From: West TN, USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-26-2000 10:14 PM
My ebay account was closed because of age and I was told not to buy/sell anything (even closed deals) through ebay and at the time I had several high bids--hence the bad feedback rating. Perhaps you should stick to what you know--but in your case we haven't located exactly what that is. Maybe your true line of work is more like that of a politician--anyone who crosses you, you go dig up anything you can find on and try to make THEM look bad to take the focus off of you."You never climb to the top of a pile of manure without getting some on you."
-Phillip Scott |
Rory Freeman
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posted 11-26-2000 11:32 PM
I am (was?) the high bidder on the Von Braun Photograph. I just want to thank all those who have come to my aid in this matter - Bob Mc, Russ Still, Robert Pearlman, Jimmy Brown, Al, Franz, Donald Brady, and Dan Lorraine. I'm sorry if I left anyone out, but I'm pleased that I've had this opportunity to "meet" all of you. I admire and respect your collective integerty, concern, fairness, and experience.My thanks and best wishes to you all, - Rory Freeman |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-26-2000 11:51 PM
Mr. Freeman,
Welcome aboard! You'll find by surrounding yourself with knowledgable fellow collectors and friends you'll be able to make wise and informed purchases. I too was burned a time or two, but thanks to those you mentioned and a few more you'll come to know later, I have avoided repeating my mistakes.Sometimes you'll ask for an opinion of us and you'll get conflicting views as we occasionally disagree. But often items where you get differing opinions are to be avoided as you would a known fraud. ------------------
Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
c]:-) |
apollo11lem5@aol.com
unregistered
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posted 11-27-2000 12:01 PM
An interesting sidelight....I have received emails from 2 more people who are certain that they have the original of the Von Braun picture .I believe the total is now 3 originals in existance which is of course impossible.One gentleman paid 700.00 for his "original" and I think he is now in a mild panic as I would be.For his sake,I truly hope he does have the original.I have a sinking feeling in my heart that there is a lot of heartache and the sound of a lot of bubbles bursting concerning this item.It can happen to any one of us.The epiphany of learning that autopens existed some 30 years ago nearly destroyed my collection when I did not have all the things I thought I had.I was saved once many years ago by Sean Marsar and Leo Malz when I purchased a preprinted Gagarin signature from a man in England.They saved me on that score and I will always be grateful to them both for that!! I guess it is all part of the learning curve and there are hard lessons along the way at times! May all your autographs be real ....Donald |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-28-2000 10:31 PM
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:21:10 -0600
From: John Frantom <hilltop@alltel.net>
Organization: romancearkansas, rosebudarkansas, louark
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: RoryFreeman (email address hidded due to PEARLMAN)
louark@fortmiro.com
Subject: Re: Ebay #496393636 Von Braun"Rory, we have just applied to ebay for credit today (11/28) on the fees on this
item that amount to about $12. Our reasons are based on the below email. I think
our description in the ad told what we know about the item. Please in the future
ask all questions prior to bidding on ANY item be it eBay or any of the lesser
internet auction sites or most especially the websites that crop up on the internet
with absouetly no credibility other than a www.?.com.....The money order was
received by us today and returned to you USPS signed returned receipt to your
address in New York. Please note that I.D. is required for cashing same. John The remainder of this message has been deleted. The original message included reproductions of private exchanges between John and the buyer of the item in question. Per the bidder's request and to respect his privacy, we have deleted these e-mails. [This message has been edited by collectSPACE Admin (edited November 28, 2000).] |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-28-2000 11:02 PM
HEY YOU EXPERTS? Trash this one from Mr. Rileys Estate!
http://www.fortmiro.com/johnyoung1.jpg http://www.fortmiro.com/johnyoung.jpg Think we just might make copies on Kodak paper and sell them for start bid of .99 cents like we may do with the vonbraun! Got lots more too! May just put a high reserve on them and then link to our other space stuff......interesting, just watch. John |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-28-2000 11:14 PM
THANKS PEARLMAN......YOU EDIT THE TRUTH AND
THE FACTS! Sounds like whats going on in Florida to me!!!!!!!!!Have
fun with your BOARD games. Must be fun with nothing else to do cept sit and watch this sucker!..........John |
thecollector
Member Posts: 216
From: West TN, USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-28-2000 11:44 PM
Dude, earlier you said you were leaving, what made you change your mind. Have you nothing better to do other than come in here and stir $#*&? |
rosebudarkansas
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posted 11-29-2000 12:18 AM
DUDE yall started stiring and seem to want to continue...I will too...see ya on the auction site..John |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-29-2000 12:55 AM
John,
What I don't understand is your belligerent attitude. Let me give you an example of how this could have been better handled.Many months ago I had pointed out to me that a Michael Collins I was auctioning MIGHT not be authentic. Since for me, my reputation as a guy who only sells 100% genuine items is paramount, I canceled the auction. Even though I was sure of the item I took it to two local experts who judged it authentic. I later sold it to one of those men. I could have relisted it with the blessings of our group because they would have known I'd taken the extra steps to insure the Collins' authenticity. Either way I'd have preserved the esteem of my peers. I would think your reputation would count more than the $400 or so you had to refund the item for. You could have had it reexamined by a 3rd party, then gone with their judgement as to whether to sell it or not. There's an old saying, "I think he doth protest too much". I know that with the attitude you've exhibited in this forum and in phone calls attacking one of the most respected collectors in our field, none of us will EVER do business with you. Now maybe that doesn't matter much to you, but it would me. I would suggest that you do a little soul searching on how you could have handled this matter more gracefully. Best of luck in your future endeavors, but you won't do any future business with the 100's who read collectSPACE. ------------------
Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
c]:-) |
albatron@aol.com
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posted 11-29-2000 04:32 PM
Just thought ya'll would like to know, the buyer informed me that "Rosebud" (aptly named) now refuses to refund the money, but may be "reconsidering it". Beautiful.Al |
Odyessy85
Member Posts: 61
From:
Registered: May 2000
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posted 11-29-2000 04:48 PM
Just wanted to add my two cents. First of all we solved one problem by having mandatory regestration. Now at last we know who is doing the mudslinging. To slander people like Wayne, Russ and Robert, who are all great people that I respect and get much help from, is shameful. As collectors we look out for one another. A couple collectors had some questions about an item and notified the bidder. What is so wrong about that? I work at Krogers. If I am baging groceries and a customers eggs are broke I am not going to sell them that. I'll tell them and get another one. Just my thoughts.
Andrew |
albatron@aol.com
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posted 11-29-2000 05:29 PM
Wayno:Sage advice indeed. And as you stated, your reputation is well established and integrity not to be questioned. Not by me or anyone else I know. And not only the 100's here on collectSpace, but the eGroups list of 260+ is aware as well as you read. Best, Al |
UKRuss
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posted 11-29-2000 06:57 PM
Just like to add my voice.I have had nothing but good, sincere and expert advise from Robert, Russ and Wayne - indeed from all my fellow collectors at CollectSpace. I would not hesitate in trusting the opinions of my fellows here. Look forward to many long discussions in the future, Cheers Russ. |
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