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Author
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Topic: Apollo 17 crew selection and rotation
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mecca
Member Posts: 28
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023
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posted 01-16-2023 04:05 PM
   
To begin with, I acknowledge the fact that Apollo 17 was a great mission with a great crew. Gene Cernan, Ron Evans, and Harrison Schmitt did an outstanding job. Schmitt's presence on the crew was mandated by NASA Headquaqrters. The backup crew for Apollo 14 was Cernan, Evans, and Joe Engle. Schmitt was on the backup crew for Apollo 15. Some people feel that the entire Apollo 15 backup crew should have been assigned to Apollo 17. I am one of them. I mean no disrespect to Cernan, Evans, or Engle. I would be interested to hear the opinion of others on this matter. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-16-2023 04:28 PM
In my opinion, Deke Slayton simply didn't feel the necessity of going against his crew rotation system. It was Gordon's mission that was canceled, not Cernan's. Cernan and his crew had done a good enough job as Apollo 14 backups and didn't deserve to have their flight taken from them. They were a fully qualified and capable crew. He actually did submit Cernan, Evans and Engle as the Apollo 17 prime crew, only to have management insist that Schmitt be on the flight. Deke wasn't big on science. He felt his job and responsibility were to have a crew trained and ready to fly on launch day, and that flying Apollo was a pilot's job more than anything. That's why scientist astronauts were required to learn to fly jets. |
mecca
Member Posts: 28
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023
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posted 01-16-2023 04:35 PM
Fair enough. However, when the press release announcing the selection of Gordon, Brand, and Schmitt as the backup crew for Apollo 15, it stated that this crew would be eligible for assignment to a prime crew for any flight subsequent to Apollo 16. Furthermore, in his autobiography, Deke stated that after the first lunar landing he felt no need technically or morally to keep the rotation in place. I want to make it clear that I do not claim that my opinion on this matter is fact. I just wanted to express it. I would also like to point out that I am not the only one to have this opinion. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-16-2023 04:58 PM
Jim McDivitt, for one, who was the Apollo Spacecraft Program Manager at the time, was completely against Cernan commanding Apollo 17. I believe he threatened to resign if Cernan got the assignment. Not sure exactly why. Years later he mentioned that he had "issues" with the way some crew assignments were made and left it at that. (He was also vehemently against Deke assigning Al Shepard to Apollo 13 then 14 after the initial selection was rejected by management.) |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-17-2023 04:01 AM
As I see it, Slayton's principles on selecting the crews were very logical and were based on real needs and availability. The rotation came into life only because in the beginning of Gemini there were only 13 astronauts available for crew assignment (1962 group plus Shepard, Grissom, Schirra and Cooper) — that made three full crews (prime and backup). With Gemini flights following each other in about three-month interval, it did make a lot of sense to use the "freed" backup crew as prime for the next available mission (i.e. three flights later). It looks like the situation with early Apollo crews was somewhat similar. With a requirement to have a rendezvous-flown CMP (very logical one for early test missions and solo flying), the pool of qualified astronauts was only enough to staff three full crews (18 people in total). So the rotation was again kept as principle, especially in the light of two to three-month interval between the early missions. (By the way, the small amount of available people in pre-fire period forced Slayton to even reduce the rotation period — see the original crew arrangement for AS-204, 205, 278, and 503). After Apollo 12 the rotation was somewhat modified, as some astronauts went out of the business for different reasons, so the "rotation" in most cases was possible for only one "remaining" person from the crew (the most "deserving" being a crewmember, who didn't land). We all know that Cernan was originally proposed LMP position in Apollo 13 backup crew, and Collins was the prime commander candidate for Apollo 14 backup crew. However, when Slayton decided to give Cernan the backup job on 14, he was confident in him and was not going to change his decision. Which is another illustration of Slayton's fair and straightforward way of dealing. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-17-2023 05:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
I believe he threatened to resign if Cernan got the assignment.
McDivitt did resign before Apollo 17 flew. quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
It was Gordon's mission that was canceled, not Cernan's.
On top of that, Cernan flew earlier than Gordon (GT-9 and Apollo 10 vs GT-11 and Apollo 12), which made him technically available for next assignment earlier than Gordon. Regarding scientists, I find Slayton's position well-grounded. Apollo was far, far away from being a system reliable enough to fly "passengers." Each flight had a great deal of troubleshooting going on, so having all crewmembers appropriately trained and disciplined (which then was believed to be an equivalent of piloting experience) was a necessity, and not a whim — an astronaut in those days was more like an operator/troubleshooter, than a scientist.
And this is why all scientists were required to take a bit of pilot's share. Nothing against scientists, of course — it's just Apollo by design was a pilot's machine. |
mecca
Member Posts: 28
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023
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posted 01-17-2023 08:50 AM
Cernan flew before Gordon because Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were killed in a plane crash. If this accident had not happened, Cernan would have flown on Gemini 12. Gordon flew on Gemini 11. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-17-2023 10:47 AM
More than a few eyebrows were raised (and professional egos hurt) when Cernan was assigned to a Gemini crew ahead of experienced test pilots like Bean and Williams, and rendezvous heavyweight Buzz Aldrin. In his book The All American Boys, Walt Cunningham attributed this directly to the influence of Tom Stafford, who took a liking to Cernan and said of Gene "He does what he's told to do" or something to that effect. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-17-2023 11:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mecca:
Cernan flew before Gordon because Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were killed in a plane crash. If this accident had not happened, Cernan would have flown on Gemini 12. Gordon flew on Gemini 11.
True, but Stafford was to become the first one of his group to fly (Shepard-Stafford for GT-3) while the reality put him in the second half of the list. On the other hand, he gained two rendezvous mission experience — quite a unique one among his peers. However, even with this undisputed unique qualification he ended up being assigned as CMP in Borman's crew. I think this was a numbers game. He was available at the time when a particular crew was getting formed (Slayton had only a limited amount of people free and available for next assignment; many of Stafford's peers were still busy with Gemini). Also, backup 205 and potential 503 CMP Stafford was getting his third flight before some of his peers had flown their second (Armstrong, for example, was still on a dead-end job on GT-11). |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-17-2023 12:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
...ahead of experienced test pilots like Bean and Williams
All crews selected by Slayton had test pilots as commanders. This seemed to be an iron rule. However, Cernan is arguably the only case when Slayton disrespected his own rule. While Stafford's (and not only) influence on Apollo-17 CDR assignment is obvious, Slayton himself seemed to be rating Cernan high enough to give him a real Gemini flight (otherwise he would have assigned a test pilot — someone like Williams, Bean or Eisele — instead). |
mecca
Member Posts: 28
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023
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posted 01-17-2023 12:18 PM
I would like to elaborate on my opinion. The backup crew for Apollo 15 was backing up a J mission. The Apollo 14 backup crew was backing up an H mission. Furthermore Richard Gordon was an experienced test pilot. In fact, I find it surprising that he was not chosen as a member of the Next Nine. He was also the command module pilot of Apollo 12. The job of command module pilot was considered to be more difficult than the job of lunar module pilot. Vance Brand was also a test pilot. Harrison Schmitt was not. However he learned to fly both jets and helicopters and did a lot of work in the LM simulator. All of that being said, I do see that Cernan's crew had advantages over Gordon's. All of them had been training longer. Cernan was the LMP of Apollo 10. Hence, he had spaceflight experience in an actual LM. He was also better educated than Gordon. He had a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from Purdue and a master's degree in aerospace engineering from the Naval Postgraduate School. Ronald Evans was a combat veteran. I do not glorify war. However, Evans had the experience of being under the enormous stress of combat. Evans was also better educated than Brand. Evans had a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from the University of Kansas and a master's degree in aerospace engineering from the Naval Postgraduate School. Joe Engle was an outstanding test pilot, an X-15 pilot. So I want to make clear that, even though I am of the opinion that Gordon, Brand, And Schmitt would have been a better choice, I am balanced in my views. Furthermore, I realise that my views are outside opinions. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-17-2023 12:42 PM
Good summary! However, all flown J crews came from backing up H missions — just because there were only three J missions. Without a doubt, Gordon, Brand and Schmitt was a very capable crew, but there was only one mission left. Also, Cernan's crew had five months advantage in training (even though the announcement of 17 crew had to wait until 15 was over; I think this delay was more linked with the political "we must send a scientist" thing, than with anything else. Perhaps top brass, Slayton, and others wanted to see how good Schmitt was on 15 to have a better ground to further promote (or derail) that idea). In a way, Slayton (again!) protected his people as much as he could: as soon as he assigned Cernan (14) before Gordon (15) for whatever reason, Cernan went to fly first. (I think, had Gordon been a backup commander of Apollo 14, Slayton would put him on 17 without a doubt.) |
328KF
Member Posts: 1382
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-17-2023 01:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
I think, had Gordon been a backup commander of Apollo 14, Slayton would put him on 17 without a doubt.
I think I've pointed out before that McDivitt’s decision to stick with the LM test flight pushed his prime and backup crews forward one mission. This move was critical in who would be first on the moon, and last. If McDivitt's crew stayed on Apollo 8, Conrad's crew would have flown Apollo 11, and Gordon would have been in a position to back up 14, and eventually command 17. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-17-2023 01:54 PM
Was that really McDivitt's decision to stay with the LM test flight? What seems to be known is that McDivitt was not offered to consider flying the C-prime mission (it was Borman, who was instead.) So, perhaps the decision to give the C-prime to Borman was actually made by Slayton or above and Borman was just offered it nominally. And, yes, indeed, there are at least two scenarii when Cernan does not get Apollo 17 at all: - Crews of Apollo 8 and 9 are not swapped, so Gordon flies 11 and then gets 14 backup crew (thus 17 prime)
- Collins takes 14 backup command (thus 17 prime) when offered by Slayton.
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Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-17-2023 02:41 PM
I would add a third scenario:Collins does not have surgery in 1968 and flies as CMP on Apollo 8. His backup, Jim Lovell, flies as CMP on Apollo 11. Lovell accepts Deke's presumed offer to serve as backup commander of Apollo 14, then goes on to fly as commander of Apollo 17. |
Paul78zephyr
Member Posts: 786
From: Hudson, MA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-17-2023 05:27 PM
Great discussion by all and I respect all opinions.Mine is that Cernan got the nod from Slayton because of all the people whispering in his (Slayton's) ear the one he listened to most was Stafford. And Stafford was Cernan's biggest advocate. I've always felt terrible for Joe Engle. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1382
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-17-2023 09:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
Was that really McDivitt's decision to stay with the LM test flight?
A good question, and it made me pull out Deke's book, where I was surprised to find a few paragraphs on pg 215 written by McDivitt himself: Deke explained the situation and said that he wanted me to stick with my original mission — which would now become Apollo 9. But he wasn't going to force me.Over the years this story has grown to the point where people think I was offered the flight around the moon but turned it down. Not quite. I believe if I'd thrown myself on the floor and begged to fly the C-prime mission, Deke would have let us have it. But it was never really offered. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-18-2023 05:22 AM
Thanks for posting McDivitt's quote - that's exactly what I was talking about.Now you see the reasons why some would not be so happy with Slayton. But the real problem is that any decision like this cannot make ~everybody~ happy - there will always be people feeling they are overlooked and underappreciated. On top of that, some decisions did not come from Slayton himself. "Grounding" Carpenter, Eisele and Cunningham seemed to be Kraft's decisions, not Slayton's. (I always wondered what it took for Slayton to still assign Eisele to Apollo 10 backup crew — that must have been a tough sell. Though, the whole Apollo 10 backup crew seemed to be a fragile and tentative compromise — and Slayton well-understood that.) |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3551
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-18-2023 10:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul78zephyr:
Stafford was Cernan's biggest advocate...
True, but don't underestimate the influence of Al Shepard. Cernan had worked closely with Shepard as his back-up on Apollo 14, and Shepard was therefore well qualified to champion Cernan's cause. With Stafford and Shepard in Cernan's camp, Slayton had two powerful reasons not to depart from the "normal" rotation.It's also worth noting that as far as Vance Brand was concerned, he lost the Moon when Apollo 18 was cancelled. In my research for "A Long Voyage to the Moon", Brand told me that he wasn't surprised when Cernan, Evans and Schmitt got the nod. Aside from the special case of geologist Schmitt, Brand had expected Slayton to follow the rotation. By the way, referring back to the comments about why Apollo 17 was delayed to December, 1972, I refer to a meeting at the Oval Office on 24 November, 1971 at which President Nixon initially wanted to cancel Apollos 16 and 17; then suggested pushing them both back until after the November 1972 presidential election; and finally agreed that Apollo 16 could go ahead well before the election, but that Apollo 17 could not go ahead until AFTER the election. Whatever operational reasons also existed, it was a political decision from the very top that Apollo 17 would be no earlier than December 1972. |
mecca
Member Posts: 28
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023
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posted 01-18-2023 10:25 AM
In his book "The Last Man on the Moon" Cernan said that, after his helicopter crash, he felt that he had blown it. He also said that, if Schmitt had to fly, the logical thing to do under the circumstances was to keep a well trained crew together. It is also very noteworthy that Cernan was offered the job of being backup LMP on Apollo 13, which would strongly indicated rotation to Apollo 16, but turned it down. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2023 10:30 AM
I remember seeing a forum where Dick Gordon told Cernan that he figured that Gene had "blown it" with the helicopter crash and that Gordon's crew was a shoo-in for Apollo 17. Cernan had brought up the subject of the crash and Gordon was gently ribbing him. quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
I always wondered what it took for Slayton to still assign Eisele...
In Eisele's case, I think it was simply Deke's rule that the CMP on the first few flights with the LM had to be a spaceflight veteran. Slayton just didn't have many options. I'm sure Kraft understood that, with the expectation that there wouldn't be a prime crew assignment for Eisele forthcoming. And if John Young had broken his hip a month before launch and Apollo 10 wound up being flown by Stafford, Eisele and Cernan, maybe Donn would have redeemed himself in the eyes of Kraft and others. Even if he didn't, he would have made it to the moon. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-18-2023 10:48 AM
In fact, I kind of hear those who were against Cernan. What really surprises me is his attitude (a bit lightweighted, even if I hate to say that) towards certain things. I mean those stories about getting stopped by police in the night before the launch of Apollo 10 (while he was supposed to be on a quarantine), then the stories of prostate infection and foot injury not long before Apollo 17 launch. Flying a helicopter into water looks very innocent compared with these ones. I don't know whether John Young realized that he was THAT close to flying his second Moon landing. I am sure Cernan wasn't the only one doing all this crazy "white scarf/macho" things, but at least I am not aware of others being caught on doing that. But hats off, Apollo 17 was well-flown and I don't think anybody regretted or complained about Cernan's in-flight performance. |
Captain Apollo
Member Posts: 342
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 01-18-2023 11:00 AM
Reference that, I guess that unlike others who wore a white scarf, Cernan did put the training hours in? |
Tom
Member Posts: 1683
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-18-2023 11:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
"Grounding" Carpenter, Eisele and Cunningham...
If I recall correctly, wasn't Walt Cunningham briefly assigned as back-up commander on Skylab 1? |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-18-2023 11:48 AM
After "hiding" Cunningham in AAP, Slayton indeed planned to use him as a backup commander of Skylab-2 - the first mission. However, when Cunningham realized he was not going to fly, he resigned. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2023 12:40 PM
I remember reading somewhere that Cunningham was told by Tom Stafford, who was Chief of the Astronaut Office at the time, that he would command the first mission. Later, Pete Conrad decided he wanted that slot and as a senior and more experienced astronaut he got it. When Cunningham was offered the position of Conrads backup, he decided to retire. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-18-2023 12:48 PM
What is interesting is that even with the intervention of Conrad, there were still two more flights available. Had Slayton wanted to (or better to say, ~could~) give Cunningham a chance, he could still offer him the second or the third flight. The fact that this did not happen means the situation was a little bit more complicated than it seemed. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1683
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-18-2023 06:43 PM
It must have been very complicated. He even got passed over as commander of the third flight, which was given to rookie Jerry Carr. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2023 07:50 PM
I think Pete Conrad had a lot of influence on the selection of the Skylab crews after he displaced Cunningham as Chief Skylab astronaut. Al Bean was his colleague and buddy from before their NASA days and landed on the moon with him. Jerry Carr worked for Conrad as a member of the Apollo 12 astronaut support crew and had Apollo 19 taken away from him. I read somewhere that Conrad tried to convince Dick Gordon to come over to Skylab after Apollo 18 was canceled, but Gordon elected to take his chances with potentially commanding Apollo 17. Cunningham, on the other hand, just wasn't one of Pete's guys. |
mecca
Member Posts: 28
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023
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posted 01-18-2023 07:53 PM
If Cernan had accepted the job of being backup LMP on Apollo 13, would Gordon have been backup commander on Apollo 14? If so, who would be backup commander of Apollo 15? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2023 07:54 PM
The original plan had Cunningham as backup commander of Skylab 1 and Schweikart as backup commander of 2 and 3. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2023 08:03 PM
If Cernan had accepted Deke's offer to be backup LMP on Apollo 13, there is evidence that Bill Anders would have been selected as backup commander of Apollo 14. Cernan kind of confirmed that in his biography. Anders would have accepted a second trip to the moon if it meant he would land, he just didn't want to go back only to orbit again.I assumed for years that when Anders left the astronaut corps in 1969, he was done. However, in the book about the 1978 astronaut selection, it mentions that when anticipating their future manpower needs, NASA management contacted several members of the previous astronaut selection groups who were on leave from the astronaut office, asking them if they intended to return. This was in 1977. To my surprise, Anders was one of them (along with Rusty Schweikart, Jack Swigert and Joe Allen). Only Allen replied that he intended to return, so apparently Anders was on some kind of reserve status for 8 years. Swigert was also a surprise because I recall he was basically fired by George Low after admitting he lied about his involvement with the Apollo 15 crew first day cover scandal. He was going to be named as CMP on ASTP. Schweikart and Allen were working in other NASA departments at that time. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-19-2023 01:30 AM
Anthony England, too, came back in the late 70s, if I recall correctly.In the meantime, Pogue in his memoirs recalls that around the same period of time he felt (or even was told — need to check the exact quote) he was not needed in the JSC (this was around 1976 or so). Indeed, everybody's equal, but some are more equal than others. quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
...Bill Anders would have been selected as backup commander of Apollo 14.
I doubt Anders could be considered as potential Apollo 14 backup commander. To be considered for further Apollo missions, Anders had to stay with the program. But, by the time he left the program in 1969, he was Apollo 11 backup CMP. This likely meant that had he stayed, he would logically end up in Apollo 13 prime crew as CMP. Perhaps, realizing this (and not willing to fly around the Moon again without landing) he finally decided to resign. As to Apollo 14 and 15 backup crews, I would still think of people like Gordon, Mattingly (Swigert), or Haise (especially after losing his landing chance). Bean is a theoretical candidate, too (though some people would be against him). But, perhaps, Slayton would stick to those who didn't have a chance to walk on the Moon (remember his "I didn't want to send poor Jack Swigert around the Moon again" sentiment?). The flight rate was decreasing to two missions per year, so it would have made sense to shorten the rotation period ("skip one" instead of "skip two" from prime to next backup assignment). quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
...which was given to rookie Jerry Carr.
Indeed! Carr could still fly as a pilot (if somebody badly wanted to give him a chance). As Slayton wrote in his memoirs he had problems in selling some of his guys (e.g. Cooper) to the management. I suspect, that for some reason, Cunningham, could have fallen out of grace (again?) at a certain point (surely during Apollo 7, but maybe also once again after?). |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-19-2023 06:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
Pogue in his memoirs recalls...
Sorry — my mistake. I just checked with Pogue's book. In fact, when Pogue decided to resign, John Young offered him a one-year leave of absence to "see if the blood pressure problem clears up" instead. However, upon his return to the office (1978 class was already in) "I walked around the halls of the astronaut office and looked for familiar faces. I didn't see anyone I knew, but I noticed how I felt as I toured the office. It was a feeling of mild depression or pessimism - an overall downer. ... I could tell from my reaction that resuming my job wasn't right thing to do." |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-19-2023 09:17 AM
I don't have Gene's book handy, but in it Cernan is the one who said that although he didn't realize it at the time, Bill Anders was his main competition for the Apollo command slot. Keep in mind these decisions were being made in the first half of 1969. Anders had made it clear he had no interest in flying to the moon again without landing on it. It's entirely plausible that Slayton could have offered Anders the Apollo 14 backup CDR/Apollo 17 commander spot before Apollo 11 flew and after Collins turned it down, especially if Cernan had accepted his backup Apollo 13 LMP offer (which would've occurred in the spring of 1969). It would've meant that Anders would serve on two backup crews in a row, but presumably he would have considered it worth it if it meant landing on Apollo 17. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-19-2023 10:00 AM
From Cernan's book: Unlike me, Bill couldn't have cared less about having a command. He was a true astronaut, damn it, and his goal was to walk on the Moon. To him, taking the offered CM pilot slot meant that he would just ride in circles around the Moon some more during the flight of 13, while Lovell, as mission commander, and Fred Haise, who replaced Bill as LM pilot, went down to surface. Anders felt he had done enough lunar orbiting on Apollo 8. And because no one really knew how many flights there would be after Apollo 13, Bill thought that the chances of his rotating to into a command and eventual Moon walk were pretty remote. So just as I had passed on the backup LM job, and Mike had turned down a future command, Anders declined the Apollo 13 CM pilot's job. A perplexed Deke Slayton suddenly had to get used to a bunch of experienced astronauts refusing his offers of Moon trips.Deke asked Anders to help out in the interim by taking a job in Washington with the National space Council, and Bill reluctantly agreed, with the understanding that he would remain on astronaut flight status and he considered for an assignment that would get him a Moon walk. But once he traded the Banana River at the Cape for the Potomac, Bill lost that particular dream... As I see it, this just illustrates that Slayton had no plans to give a command to Anders — otherwise his (Slayton's) reaction would have been different (like it was in Cernan's case.) Or Anders just gave up too quickly...I also think, that this is another evidence that Slayton rated Cernan higher than Anders (of course it started with giving Cernan a Gemini flight, while Anders had to wait until Apollo) and if he (Slayton) had to choose between Cernan and Anders, he would definitely go for Cernan. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-19-2023 10:13 AM
It all came down to Cernan's gamble. If he had said yes to being John Young's LMP, Slayton would've had to come up with another choice when Collins turned him down. I see Anders as the obvious choice. But when given the choice of Anders OR Cernan, Gene held the edge for a number of reasons. |
ashot
Member Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-19-2023 10:29 AM
Another interesting observation: if one follows the "CMP must be an experienced guy" logic, Cernan should have been offered a CMP slot — but Slayton wanted him to be a LMP again (but at this time it was a real landing — likely a big prize in the eyes of Slayton). If one follows this "inverted" logic, Anders, too, could have been offered a LMP slot on a real landing, but was given CMP instead. I still think that this was more or less a numbers game (being available at right time and right place plus possible "promotions" from supporters, etc), but Cernan's case somehow deviated from the "mainstream" path from the beginning. |
mecca
Member Posts: 28
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023
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posted 01-19-2023 11:54 AM
It is also very noteworthy that Cernan was one of six non-test pilots in his group of 14 astronauts and he was the third youngest in his group. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1718
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-19-2023 12:00 PM
Slayton apparently wanted to "recycle" the first couple of LMPs who actually flew the LM, and give them the opportunity to land on the moon. Rusty Schweikart was originally supposed to have been Dave Scott's LMP, until the motion sickness episode on Apollo 9. And of course Deke's original plan for Cernan was to be John Youngs LMP. |
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