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  Which Saturn V S-IC first stage is this?

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Author Topic:   Which Saturn V S-IC first stage is this?
LM-12
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posted 07-28-2018 10:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Which S-IC stage is this?
This sequence of photos, taken over a three-month period, shows vertical assembly of the Saturn V first stage at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Michoud Assembly Facility here.
It might be S-IC-5 (Apollo 10) AS suggested here.

I think it could be the S-IC-6 (Apollo 11) stage. What looks like the same photo appears in the March 3, 1967 issue of MSC Roundup. Alan Lawrie mentions in "Saturn" that the vertical assembly of S-IC-6 was completed in the Michoud tower at the end of 1966.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 07-29-2018 05:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just from a quick glance, it looks to be the S-1C stage of the pathfinder's AS-500F vehicle which never flew.

LM-12
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posted 07-29-2018 06:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Several of the earlier manned S-IC stages (as far along as S-IC-6, I believe) initially had 500F-type markings on the intertank structure during assembly and testing, before being repainted and shipped by barge to KSC.

Not sure about the S-IC-7 (Apollo 12) stage. S-IC-8 (Apollo 13) can be seen in the Michoud tower with an all-white intertank.

Tom
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posted 07-29-2018 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, 500F. I believe that was the only Saturn V first stage to have "horizontal" black markings on it.

Jim Behling
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posted 07-29-2018 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, 501 and 502 S-ICs were shipped with the black stripe and repainted in the VAB.

LM-12
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posted 07-29-2018 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is S-IC-3 (Apollo 8) at the Marshall Space Flight Center from the "Saturn Illustrated Chronology" (MHR-5).

Alan's book has photos taken during testing that show a black and white intertank structure on the S-IC-5 (Apollo 10) stage.

Also, Michoud photo 12871-11 is dated 1-4-67 and shows an S-IC first stage, with a black and white intertank structure, assembled (without engines) in the Michoud Vertical Assembly Building. It is identified as S-IC-6, which was Apollo 11.

Alan mentions in "Saturn" that the S-IC-6 stage was moved out of the Michoud VAB on 6 January 1967.

So the photo sequence in the first post could be the Apollo 11 stage.

LM-12
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posted 07-29-2018 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1967 photo MSFC-6759486 shows the S-IC-5 (Apollo 10) stage with 500F-type markings.
This photograph is a view of the Saturn V S-IC-5 (first) flight stage being hoisted into the S-IC-B1 test stand at the Mississippi Test Facility (MTF), Bay St. Louis, Mississippi...

LM-12
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posted 07-30-2018 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A 1968 article in "Space World" magazine mentions that seven of the already assembled S-IC flight stages had the intertank repainted all-white.

So that would be the S-IC stages for Apollo 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12.

mikej
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posted 07-30-2018 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikej   Click Here to Email mikej     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In case it may help, that is NASA photo 12898-1, but is undated.

Its caption isn't especially enlightening, either:

NEW ORLEANS, La. - This sequence of photographs, taken over a three-month period, shows vertical assembly of the Saturn V first stage at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Michoud Assembly Facility here. Built by The Boeing Company Launch Systems Branch, the booster measures 138 feet tall and 33 feet in diameter. The five major structures of the 7.5-million-pound-thrust first stage are assembled in Michoud's Vertical Assembly Building. The thrust structure, which supports the rocket's weight and distributes the force of the engines upward, is the first major component moved into the assembly tower. The fuel tank, with a capacity of 210,000 gallons, is positioned above the thrust structure. The intertank, a corrugated shell, is then lowered into position where it connects the fuel and liquid oxygen tanks. After the 330,000-gallon-capacity liquid oxygen tank is placed on the intertank, the booster is topped off by a forward skirt, onto which the Saturn V second stage will be attached. The three-stage Saturn V will launch manned flights to the moon within this decade.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 07-30-2018 07:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Despite what some others have noted, I am still going with 500F since the other photo captions, descriptions, etc. all seem to indicate to me an early first-type use of a Saturn V launch vehicle. The black markings in many of the rocket stage areas match up to those of 500F.

I've got a lot of early Saturn V photos and files here somewhere that I'll have to dig up and report back later as time permits.

LM-12
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posted 07-30-2018 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The photo numbers might indicate something. The Apollo 11 photo I mentioned earlier is number 12871-11. The assembly sequence photo is number 12898-1.

AlanLawrie
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posted 07-31-2018 06:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This image appeared in the 15 February 1967 issue of the Marshall Star, so the vertical assembly had to be complete by then. Vertical assembly was only performed on S-IC stages built at MAF so that excludes the S-IC stages built at MSFC ie S-IC-T, S-IC-1 and S-IC-2.

That leaves 6 candidate stages that meet these criteria. They are (with the completion of vertical assembly dates):

  • S-IC-D Jun 1965
  • S-IC-F Aug 1965
  • S-IC-3 Dec 1965
  • S-IC-4 Apr 1966
  • S-IC-5 Sep 1966
  • S-IC-6 Dec 1966
The vertical assembly of S-IC-7 was not completed until April 1967 so that's too late for this photo.

The black circumferential band was deleted around October 1967 as there are photos of hardware with the band in September 1967 and photos of hardware without the band in November 1967. So the fact that the stage in this composite photo has a band doesn't narrow down the identification as all the hardware completed, or in manufacture, around Feb 1967 would have had the band.

So, as the composite photo first appeared in February 1967 it most likely shows the latest stage assembly completed at that time which was S-IC-6, completed 2 months before. So the answer is most likely Apollo 11 but could theoretically be any of the six above mentioned stages.

LM-12
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posted 07-31-2018 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great info, Alan. I had started to eliminate some of the possibilities myself.

There is a September 1967 photo (6759502) that shows S-IC-3 with an all-white intertank. That is the earliest "repainted" photo I have seen at Michoud. The flags were attached to the LOX tank when S-IC-3 still had the black and white intertank.

LM-12
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posted 08-01-2018 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
S-IC-6 can be seen with an all-white intertank structure in November 1967.

LM-12
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posted 08-04-2018 04:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not sure which S-IC can be seen in this photo of President Lyndon B. Johnson taken at Michoud on December 13, 1967. Also seen seated behind Johnson: Walter Cunningham, Wally Schirra, Wernher von Braun and James Webb.

There appears to be a number on the vehicle, but it is unreadable.

My guess: S-IC-8 (Apollo 13)

AlanLawrie
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posted 08-06-2018 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
According to the online pdf of the 13 December 1967 issue of the Biloxi Daily Herald for 13 December 1967 the visit took place the previous day (12 December) and the President spoke in front of S-IC-8 which was the Apollo 13 booster as you say.

LM-12
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posted 08-06-2018 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Alan. My clue was October 1967 photo 6760490 that shows S-IC-8 with only two F-1 engines installed.

LM-12
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posted 08-09-2018 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is an undated photo in "Carrying the Fire" by Michael Collins that shows Frank Borman, William Anders and Collins standing in front of an S-IC stage at the Michoud Assembly Facility. The stage has a black and white intertank.

The photo caption:

Anders, Borman, and Collins in front of their monster

LM-12
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posted 05-30-2019 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is Michoud photo 12871-11 dated 1-4-67 and mentioned earlier. The S-IC has a black and white intertank structure. It is identified as S-IC-6, which was the first stage of Apollo 11.

LM-12
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posted 11-13-2022 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
There is an undated photo...
Here is that photo:

LM-12
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posted 11-15-2022 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A large group of astronauts (about 20 or so) toured the Michoud Assembly Facility in May 1966. Maybe the above photo was taken at that time.

More likely, the photo was taken sometime after the MSC crew announcement news release dated December 22, 1966:

Prime crew for the A/S-503 mission, the third manned Apollo flight and the first manned flight using the Saturn V launch vehicle, is: Frank Borman, commander; Michael Collins, CM pilot; and William A. Anders, LM pilot. Backup crew is Charles Conrad, Jr., commander; Richard F. Gordon, Jr., CM pilot; and C. C. Williams, Jr., LM pilot.

LM-12
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posted 11-19-2022 01:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
S-IC-6 can be seen with an all-white intertank structure in November 1967.
Here is that photo:

AlanLawrie
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posted 11-20-2022 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding the photo of Borman, Anders and Collins at MAF this same photo appeared in the 4 January 1967 issue of Marshall Star, the in-house newspaper of MSFC. It stated that the astronauts had "recently visited MAF."

S-IC-5 was the final first stage to have the black band. Based on manufacturing records there were two stages with the black bands in MAF at that time, S-IC-4 and S-IC-5. Therefore the stage behind the astronauts was one of these (Apollo 9 or 10).

In addition the 11 January 1967 issue stated that five astronauts had visited at that time, the other two being Conrad and Williams.

LM-12
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posted 11-20-2022 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Borman, Anders, Collins, Conrad and Williams visiting MAF shortly after the December 22 crew announcement does seem to fit.

quote:
Originally posted by AlanLawrie:
S-IC-5 was the final first stage to have the black band.

Did you mean S-IC-6? See the photo linked back on 05-30-2019.

Paul78zephyr
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posted 11-20-2022 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul78zephyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlanLawrie:
S-IC-5 was the final first stage to have the black band.
Alan, thank you for your expertise - it is appreciated!

Like LM-12 I also noticed that your statement of 11.20.22 with respect to the intertank black band seems to be in conflict with your statement of 7.31.18. Perhaps you could clarify. Thanks!

AlanLawrie
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posted 11-21-2022 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for your responses. I was a little too quick with my answer and introduced an error so sorry for that.

The black band was indeed removed around the end of September 1967. S-IC-5 was the final stage to be static fired with the band but, as you both say, other stages had it during manufacturing.

Looking again at the manufacturing records they show that there were 3 stages with the black band in horizontal orientation in early January 1967 at MAF, S-IC-3, S-IC-4 and S-IC-5. S-IC-6 was in the vertical tower as shown in the earlier photo so is not a candidate.

LM-12
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posted 11-21-2022 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the correction, and the additional information.

There is also this 1967 photo of three S-IC stages at Michoud. I believe the stages are (left to right) S-IC-8, S-IC-4, and S-IC-6.

There is a sign that says "Horizontal Assy (assembly) Position 1" above one of the stages. Looks like it is above S-IC-6.

Paul78zephyr
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posted 11-22-2022 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul78zephyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alan, thank you for your responses! I have read your great Saturn V and Saturn 1/1B books but it has been many years and they were library copies.

AlanLawrie
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posted 11-23-2022 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are correct with the identification of the most recent MAF photo. I have an almost identical photo (slightly different orientation but probably taken on the same day) in my Saturn Apogee book (in black and white) and in my Saturn V Rocket Arcadia book (in colour).

The stages are identified as (l to r) S-IC-8, S-IC-4 and S-IC-6.

The F-1 engines are being installed in S-IC-8 at this time. The centre engine (105) was installed first on 25 September 1967. Next was engine 103 (top right) installed on 29 September 1967. This is the configuration in the photo so it is likely to have been taken a day or two after that. Engine 102 was installed on 9 October and 101 on 12 October. No date was reported for 104 as it was later replaced with a new engine.

This means that the repainting was done at the end of September or early October 1967.

LM-12
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posted 11-24-2022 12:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Michael Collins visited the Michoud Assembly Facility again, after the Apollo 11 mission. The date was September 6, 1969. Two S-IC stages can be seen in the background: it looks like one had the engines installed, and the other did not.

If I am not mistaken, the other F-1 engine positions are: engine 101 (bottom-left), engine 102 (top-left) and engine 104 (bottom-right).

AlanLawrie
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posted 11-25-2022 08:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlanLawrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Correct on the engine numbering.

The stage without engines is S-IC-11. This was the Apollo 16 stage that suffered a fire during the hot fire test in June 1969. It was returned to MAF and the engines removed in July 1969. The new engines were installed in December 1969 and January 1970. In the Collins photo it is just possible to make out the S-IC-11 marking on the stage.

There were actually two other stages (S-IC-9 and S-IC-13) sitting next to the S-IC-11 stage at the time of the photo. S-IC-9 (Apollo 14) was in storage after having had its hot fire test earlier that year and S-IC-13 (Skylab) had just been built and was about to be sent to MTF for hot fire testing.

In addition S-IC-10 (Apollo 15) was in storage in an environmentally controlled cover. There is a photo of that in my Saturn Apogee book.

LM-12
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posted 11-25-2022 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see the S-IC-11 photos on page 183 of your terrific book. I also see the two S-IC stages beside S-IC-11 in the 69-00732 photo dated the month before Collins was there.

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