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Author
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Topic: Motivations for Apollo-Soyuz Test Project
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Jim_Voce
Member Posts: 273
From:
Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 10-15-2016 03:56 PM
   
In reference to the Apollo-Soyuz mission, does anyone know why NASA was so keen to have a joint mission with the Soviets? Not counting early discussions in the 1960s with the Soviets about joint space activities, the initial talks with the Soviets that started Apollo-Soyuz began in 1970, finally leading to the agreement in 1972. So again, does anyone know why there was such a strong desire on NASA's part in 1970 to get a joint mission happening? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-15-2016 09:19 PM
From the prologue to "The Partnership" (NASA SP-4209), NASA's history of the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project: Tom Paine, the third administrator of NASA, brought to the agency an abiding belief that the Soviet Union and the United States eventually would have to consider working together, abandoning the competitive nature of space flight. His beliefs concerning the necessity for closer working relationships between the two superpowers went back many years. When he returned to college after World War II, "learning the Russian language was one of the two fields [he] selected for its long-range implications (the other was nuclear energy)." As he studied the future of manned space flight and other aspects of man's investigations of the cosmos, Paine became convinced "that the conquest of space [was] a job of such enormity that a new partnership of major nations should be organized with the US/USSR leaders demonstrating the way. ...thus, throughout his time with NASA, Paine tried to tone down the competitive aspects of Soviet-American space relations. He concentrated on developing a rapprochement with the Soviets that might spread into other parts of society. He also believed that elimination of the "Russian threat" rationale would force NASA to develop a space program based upon new foundations. That just begins to discuss the topic, though. There are several relevant chapters devoted to the subject. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1313
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 10-17-2016 10:54 AM
Also, the movie "Marooned," released in 1970, played a part in influencing both NASA and Russia in undertaking a joint mission. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 10-17-2016 11:19 AM
Based on what Tom Stafford says in his book "We Have Capture," the political will was there. And while in Moscow for the Soyuz 11 funeral, the ice may have been broken and it appears the Russians and U.S. began to at least consider it. |
Philip
Member Posts: 6002
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 10-17-2016 11:37 AM
Harbinger of Russian-American missions to Mir and today's ISS... |
Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1428
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 10-17-2016 06:35 PM
Heck, they even "argued" about docking light colours for each spacecraft but they got there. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-18-2016 02:07 AM
To add a couple of loosely related facts.In May 1970, NASA Administrator Tom Paine met with Soviet Academy member Blagonavov in New York. They discussed a possibility of a joint programme and the Russian felt that "...some new signal was in the works." Is this a coded reference that the Soviets had an Apollo boilerplate and were preparing to return it? This may not be as far fetched as it sounds. The Kingsport News, had this to say. (The) Russians recently asked in a telegram if the United States wanted the capsule back and information was sent to the US Embassy in Moscow to help positively identify it. Later, in 1971 the CIA, in a report on a National Intelligence Estimate of the Soviet Space Programme, stated that "Nearly all past efforts by the US to induce the Soviets to engage in cooperative or joint space programmes have met with limited success." The report goes on the record that in October 1970, a month after the return of BP-1227, talks began on the desirability of compatible Soviet and US rendezvous and docking systems. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-18-2016 11:00 AM
Politics played a motivation for sure. "If we can cooperate in space..." Maybe Paine saw Nixon's interest in Soviet relations as a way to save a piece of NASA's budget. It certainly wasn't for the science of the mission. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 10-18-2016 05:03 PM
In assessing the legacy of the ASTP mission, Vance Brand put it rather well (and I'm paraphrasing): "Our flight didn't end the Cold War, but we set a good example for others to follow." |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 10-19-2016 01:06 PM
Another good idea, alternative to Apollo-Soyuz, could be offer a seat as LMP to a Soviet cosmonaut on Apollo 18 or 19. In this way is possible that Apollo would have had at least a extra mission after Apollo 17 (think at an Apollo 18 with Gordon, Brand, Leonov as crew). |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-19-2016 01:27 PM
The Soviets outright rejected flying a cosmonaut on an Apollo lunar mission after the assassination of President Kennedy. According to Sergei Khrushchev, the son of former Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev, his father didn't trust Johnson. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 10-20-2016 08:47 AM
That was a different proposal: a joint mission on the moon.
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Jim_Voce
Member Posts: 273
From:
Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 01-16-2017 01:03 AM
There are some official explanations of why the U.S. pursued the Apollo-Soyuz mission with the Russians. One of them was to develop a system where both countries could rescue a crew stranded in orbit. But I feel the official explanations are hiding a truer intent behind the joint mission. Keeping in mind that it was the U.S. who pursued having the joint mission and that the Russians needed to be convinced to participate in the mission, does anyone have any other perspectives on why the U.S. wanted the joint mission? |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3446
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 01-16-2017 10:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The Soviets outright rejected flying a cosmonaut on an Apollo lunar mission after the assassination of President Kennedy. According to Sergei Khrushchev, the son of former Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev, his father didn't trust Johnson.
Didn't Kennedy want a joint US-USSR moon landing but Congress rejected it? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-16-2017 10:54 AM
Congress did reject the idea, going so far as to add the following clause to NASA's appropriations bills between 1963 and 1966: No part of any appropriation made available to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration by this Act shall be used for expenses of participating in a manned lunar landing to be carried out jointly by the United States and any other country without consent of the Congress. The initial objection came as a result of Kennedy proposing a joint mission in a Sept. 20, 1963 speech before the General Assembly of the United Nations; a proposal that the Soviets all but ignored. But Kennedy made two more overtures to Khrushchev, which led to the Soviet premier warming up to the idea. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1488
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 01-16-2017 12:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Voce:
But I feel the official explanations are hiding a truer intent behind the joint mission.
They aren't. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-16-2017 12:47 PM
If I recall correctly, wasn't one of the original plans having Apollo dock with the Salyut 4 space station instead of Soyuz? |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 01-16-2017 02:35 PM
Yes, one of the original proposals was to have an Apollo spacecraft dock with a Salyut, but I do not believe that 4 was specified. That scenario, however, did not make much headway. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 01-21-2017 02:10 AM
You might find this interesting - Summary of Results of the Joint US/USSR Working Group Meetings (December 1971). |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 694
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 01-21-2017 05:16 AM
On 11/12/1963 John F. Kennedy ordered his staff to work out a schedule for a joint US/Soviet flight to the moon. This was just 10 days before his assassination. quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
...wasn't one of the original plans having Apollo dock with the Salyut 4 space station instead of Soyuz?
Tom, Salyut 3 and Salyut 5 were military Almaz stations. Salyut 6 actually was launched more than two years after ASTP. An Apollo capsule would not have been possible earlier than becoming second visiting crew. Three years delay would not have fit into NASA's time schedule. Thus, Salyut 4 was the only option. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-21-2017 09:55 AM
I thought so... thanks for confirming Walter. |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 694
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 01-21-2017 01:47 PM
Since Salyut-4 had only one docking port, Alexey Leonov would have been flown with Apollo. |
AstronautBrian
Member Posts: 290
From: Louisiana
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 02-03-2017 02:55 PM
Leonov in an Apollo spacesuit would have been neat to see.Too bad we could not have used Skylab for a long-term joint mission, either. |
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