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Topic: Apollo crews reentering without helmets
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Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 07-24-2016 01:47 PM
As readers of this message board will know, the Apollo 7 astronauts refused to wear their helmets on reentry which greatly upset mission control.However, on later Apollo flights and possibly Skylab flights some crews chose to not wear their helmets on reentry as well. This was true for the ASTP crew, which accidentally inhaled toxic fumes from thruster fuel as a result. Does anyone know which other crews did not wear their helmets on reentry? |
randy Member Posts: 2231 From: West Jordan, Utah USA Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-24-2016 04:35 PM
If memory serves (and not from watching the movie) the Apollo 13 crew re-entered with out helmets. |
star51L Member Posts: 354 From: Vilano Beach, FL, USA Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 07-24-2016 05:04 PM
Thinking since Alan Bean was hit by a camera upon splashdown impact, the Apollo 12 crew likely wasn't wearing helmets. Also, from listening to Lunar Module 5's Apollo 8 series of cockpit and air-to-ground recordings, I doubt the 8 crew was wearing them as well. Finally, according to the Apollo 11 Flight Journal at NASA.gov, the 11 crew landed without helmets. |
moorouge Member Posts: 2458 From: U.K. Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 07-25-2016 01:01 AM
The answer is on the last line of page 239 of Colin Burgess's excellent book on the flight of Sigma 7 and with reference to Schirra's disagreement with Slayton. To quote - On subsequent Apollo flights crewmembers would re-enter without their helmets on. |
NukeGuy Member Posts: 55 From: Irvine, CA USA Registered: May 2014
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posted 07-25-2016 09:32 AM
Did Apollo crews resume wearing their helmets after the Soyuz 11 deaths? Apollo 15 would have been the first post-Soyuz 11 flight. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 07-25-2016 09:41 AM
Not for re-entry. See 04-29-2014 in this thread.It is mentioned in the Mission Report that the Apollo 7 crew wore their suits without helmets and gloves during re-entry. It is my understanding that all the subsequent CM crews wore shirtsleeves during re-entry. |
Mike Dixon Member Posts: 1428 From: Kew, Victoria, Australia Registered: May 2003
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posted 07-25-2016 08:07 PM
Apollo 15 did for moon liftoff as a result of Soyuz 11. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 07-25-2016 09:20 PM
I don't think that is quite right.The plan had always been for all the CDRs and LMPs to be soft-suited (with helmet and gloves) for LM liftoff through docking, was it not? What changed as a result of the Soyuz 11 accident was that all the crewmembers on Apollo 15, 16 and 17 would now have to be soft-suited (with helmet and gloves) for the LM jettison also. A third opinion anyone? |
Mike Dixon Member Posts: 1428 From: Kew, Victoria, Australia Registered: May 2003
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posted 07-25-2016 10:10 PM
From Space Safety Magazine: To a great extent, the Soyuz 11 tragedy also played on NASA's conscience. Within hours of learning of the disaster, astronauts and managers alike were wondering if exposure to the space environment for three weeks had caused the deaths of Dobrovolski, Volkov, and Patsayev. When decompression and a lack of proper space suits were blamed, a change was made to the Apollo 15 lunar mission, which was scheduled to launch a few weeks later, in July 1971. It was decided that astronauts Dave Scott and Jim Irwin would wear their space suits during their ascent from the lunar surface. "The decision," read a NASA press release, dated 19 July, "was based on a re-evaluation of the requirements for crew members to wear pressure suits during different phases of the mission. The evaluation was conducted following the Soyuz 11 accident..." |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 07-25-2016 11:10 PM
Here is the July 19, 1971 MSC News Release in its entirety: The National Aeronautics and Space Administration, following an evaluation of operational procedures for Apollo 15, has decided that the astronauts will wear their pressure suits during jettison of the lunar module.This maneuver is scheduled for 6:55 p.m., EDT, August 2, shortly after the lunar landing crew has returned to the command module following their expedition to the surface of the moon. The decision to have astronauts David R. Scott, Alfred M. Worden, and James B. Irwin fully suited at that time was based on a reevaluation of the requirements for crew members to wear pressure suits during different phases of the Apollo 15 mission. The evaluation was conducted following the Soyuz 11 spacecraft accident which resulted in the deaths of three Soviet cosmonauts. The Apollo 15 flight plan had called for the crew to be in "shirt sleeves" (wearing the inflight cover garments) during jettisoning of the lunar module ascent stage from the command module. The evaluation included a review of the design, test and flight data of the windows, hatches, valves and tubing and wiring that penetrate the cabins of both the lunar module and command module. In addition, studies were performed on reentry effects on crew and cabin with a completely failed window, structural loading during lunar module jettison, cabin pressure decay caused by various sized holes, suit donning times, and postlanding emergencies. The results of this review reconfirmed high confidence in the hardware and that operational procedures reduce to a minimum the possibility of damage to critical hardware through incorrect use. The Command Module has the capability to maintain 3.5 psi for leak rates equivalent to a 1/4-inch hole for approximately 29 minutes and the Lunar Module even longer for an equivalent leak. Suit donning times for an emergency average about 11 minutes for the two crewmen in the Lunar Module to suit-up and approximately 19 minutes for the three crewmen in the Command Module to suit-up. As a result of the review, NASA concluded that: - The Lunar Module jettison event will be added to those events already requiring the crew to be fully suited.
- No change would be made in plans for the crew to be unsuited during reentry and splashdown. Although wearing suits would increase safety during reentry down to approximately 50,000 feet, the time from that altitude to the water is insufficient for removal of suits before splashdown. Since the more probable malfunction would occur at water impact, when wearing suits would decrease crew safety, the overall level of crew risk is lower on a nominal mission, by conducting reentry with the crew unsuited.
The reentry event, except for the splashdown phase, is fairly predictable, and stress loads are well within the safety factor of the hardware. The stress loads imposed by the water impact are not so predictable and vary, for example, with wind velocity and direction, wave heights, wave velocity, wave rising or falling and direction.Therefore, although the probability of a malfunction occurring at splashdown is still low, it is higher than a malfunction occurring during reentry into the earth's atmosphere. In the event that such a malfunction did occur on splashdown and emergency egress were necessary, a suited crew would be handicapped. Furthermore, should the command module remain upside down, egress through the upper hatch under water would be required. It would be difficult and time consuming to attempt to remove suits in this condition, and if an emergency condition should exist, the crew would be severly (sic) handicapped. |
Mike Dixon Member Posts: 1428 From: Kew, Victoria, Australia Registered: May 2003
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posted 07-26-2016 02:18 AM
No worries. I was just quoting from a website as I knew there was some discussion about it at the time. |
Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 07-27-2016 12:04 AM
LM-12 that was great. Thank you! |
Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 11-12-2018 11:11 PM
On the Apollo missions, it was decided that the crews could return to Earth without wearing their pressure suits. Wasn't there any concern about what might happen to the crew in the event of a cabin depressurization on reentry?Editor's note: Threads merged. |
oly Member Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 11-13-2018 12:42 AM
Yes, there were concerns, which is the reason why there was a discussion over Apollo 7 crew donning helmets during reentry.Other concerns included the risk of a pressure seal or valve failing during reentry, or a structural failure of the pressure vessel. The key point here is risk assessment and risk mitigation. What are the chances of experiencing a cabin pressure loss during reentry? What are the expected results of such a failure? What mitigation steps can be conducted to reduce such risks? What problems do these mitigation steps introduce? Are these mitigation steps worth adoption? Hindsight is 20/20, and the risks of an Apollo command module pressure failure were calculated, and the management and engineers evaluated these risks as presented. The question can be expanded further into what are the risks of the spacecraft ever experiencing a pressure loss. The end result was that during the initial launch phase was identified to be the highest risk of a cabin pressure failure, because the rate of change in cabin differential pressure was high, and there were 5 very large and powerful rocket engines accelerating the vehicle up at high rates. meaning the time required to identify and correct a failure was short. During this phase, the astronauts were pre-breathing 100% oxygen as the oxygen/nitrogen mixed gas was purged from the cabin. Once the spacecraft orbit was established as safe, and that the cabin air had been purged, the removal of the pressure helmets becomes possible, however this depends also on what the next task requirements was. If this task involved a risk of pressure loss, the crew kept their helmets on, so docking, undocking, opening the hatch for EVA, etc, a risk assessment is done, and the result actioned. The chance of pressure loss on orbit or during trans lunar flight had a similar risk assessment done, as did activities on lunar orbit and on the lunar surface. Should a lunar landing be done in shirt sleeves or pressure suits etc. The reentry issue would be fatal. A high altitude failure at a slow leak rate that was identified in time may allow emergency actions to be done, however higher rate or instantaneous pressure loss to Zero differential would not be survivable, as the crew time of useful consciousness would be low (less than 30 seconds) and donning oxygen masks would be useless during the reentry phase. |
moorouge Member Posts: 2458 From: U.K. Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-13-2018 02:39 AM
As with Soyuz 11. |
Andy Anderson Member Posts: 87 From: Perth, Australia Registered: Dec 2009
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posted 11-13-2018 03:24 AM
quote: Originally posted by oly: ...as the crew time of useful consciousness would be low (less than 30 seconds) and donning oxygen masks would be useless during the reentry phase.
Exactly.For aircrew, the time of useful consciousness at 40000 ft is given as 12 secs and above 50,000 feet or so you need the oxygen to be pressure fed so a normal crew O2 mask is not useful. Thinking of Apollo 7 and the decision by Wally not to wear helmets during the re-entry why then did they bother to wear their suits other than perhaps Wally believing as he stated in his biography, if needed, they could "probably" get the helmets on in time? |
oly Member Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 11-13-2018 03:51 AM
The original plan was for the crew to be fully suited during reentry, Wally thought the risk of ear damage and the pain involved with the pressure change, and not being able to practice Valsalva to equalize the pressure while wearing the helmet while experiencing a head cold was a risk not worth taking.The Valsalva device was added to later helmet designs. Perhaps Wally took the time while donning the suit to contemplate, or maybe there were sure they could don helmets very quickly. |
Skylon Member Posts: 277 From: Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 11-13-2018 07:17 AM
Were there concerns about the bulkiness of wearing the Apollo suits during landing and the ability of a crew to egress in the event of an emergency? I imagine getting out of a sinking command module that is upside down after over a week in zero-g while wearing a bulky moon-suit may be cumbersome to say the least. I seem to recall Michael Collins writing in "Carrying the Fire" something to the effect of "Thank God we weren't in our pressure suits" when the capsule flipped to "Stable 2." |
Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 11-14-2018 02:13 AM
I would like to reclarify the question I asked. The Apollo 7 decision that came about was understandable. After Apollo 7 however it was decided that all crews could be in just their "shirt-sleeves" meaning no suits or helmets at all. I have never understood this decision. One explanation that was offered was a fear of water leakage aboard the spacecraft at splashdown. The suits were considered cumbersome and a hindrance as far as egressing goes. Perhaps this is the on;y explanation but during reentry, a depressurization would have been fatal. Any thoughts on this? Same thing with the space shuttle. From 1983 to 1986, NASA flew crews without suits at all. How could they justify this? |
oly Member Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 11-14-2018 03:38 AM
Can you please elaborate and clarify your question, I believe that you have asked the same question on numerous occasions. Perhaps you either don't accept, don't understand or don't read the answers offered and the references given, or we are not explaining this clearly. If you can be more specific perhaps someone can give you an acceptable answer. |
Jim Behling Member Posts: 1488 From: Cape Canaveral, FL Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 11-14-2018 07:45 AM
It is all explained above. - "The Command Module has the capability to maintain 3.5 psi for leak rates equivalent to a 1/4-inch hole for approximately 29 minutes."
That is more than enough time to complete entry. - "...although the probability of a malfunction occurring at splashdown is still low, it is higher than a malfunction occurring during reentry into the earth's atmosphere. In the event that such a malfunction did occur on splashdown and emergency egress were necessary, a suited crew would be handicapped."
This is a risk assessment. They felt that there was more risk at splashdown than from entry. The confidence in the hull integrity of the spacecraft increased as the mission duration progressed. Leak probability was likely no different during entry than during coast to and from the moon, when the crew was also not wearing a suit. A hull breach from entry gases means that there are other problems that are likely not survivable. - Shuttle could deal with a hole even longer. The suits on the shuttle were more for high speed bail out than for depressurization.
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