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Author
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Topic: How were Apollo CM and LM pilots chosen?
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perineau
Member Posts: 401
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 04-20-2016 08:38 AM
   
I've always wondered how the Apollo astronauts chose (or were assigned) training to be command module or lunar module pilots. I suppose most of them would have wanted the latter to get a shot of walking on the moon! |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1448
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 04-20-2016 10:28 AM
Well with Project Gemini running concurrently with Apollo getting up to speed (keep in mind at one point a "joint flight" between a Gemini and the first manned Apollo flight was being considered), a lot of the astronauts would have had experience in rendezvous, docking, EVA, etc. — all vital skills for a moon landing mission.So depending on the particular mission, Deke Slayton would follow more or less the crew rotation established during Gemini of being backups on a flight, skip two and then flying as prime crew. Commanders of assigned crews would of course get some say in the makeup of the crew; Shepard was high on Ed Mitchell and Stu Roosa for example (no small feat in itself!). There were exceptions, some borne out of necessity — or tragedy: Al Bean was plucked by Pete Conrad out of Apollo Applications (later called Skylab) to be lunar module pilot on Apollo 12 after CC Williams was killed; of course Swigert replaced Mattingly as command module pilot on 13; and Joe Engle had to bow out (gracefully, at least in public) in ceding his lunar module pilot slot to Jack Schmitt on 17 due to NASA officials' desire to fly a geologist on the last lunar flight. It is interesting to note; the command module pilots of the first five Apollo lunar missions (8-12) flew or were scheduled as mission commanders on later flights: Lovell on 13; Scott on 15; Young on 16; (Collins was the exception) and Gordon, scheduled for 18. Also worth noting, although the scientist-astronauts (the "Excess Eleven" and others) played vital roles in support and testing roles, none were assigned as backups. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2362
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 04-20-2016 10:47 AM
If Michael Cassutt is in the house, then I defer to his knowledge on the subject. By the way, if you have not read his book Deke!, you should definitely do so as therein he and Slayton describe the crew selection process in detail.In general, the test pilots were assigned to command module pilot slots and the "scientists" were assigned to lunar module pilot slots. Command Module Pilot Prime Crew (all test pilots except Evans) - Apollo 1 White
- Apollo 7 Eisele
- Apollo 8 Lovell
- Apollo 9 Scott
- Apollo 10 Young
- Apollo 11 Collins
- Apollo 12 Gordon
- Apollo 13 Mattingly (Swigert)
- Apollo 14 Roosa
- Apollo 15 Worden
- Apollo 16 Mattingly
- Apollo 17 Evans
Lunar Module Pilot Prime Crew - Apollo 1 Chaffee
- Apollo 7 Cunningham
- Apollo 8 Anders
- Apollo 9 Schweickart
- Apollo 10 Cernan
- Apollo 11 Aldrin
- Apollo 12 Bean (test pilot)
- Apollo 13 Haise (test pilot)
- Apollo 14 Mitchell (test pilot)
- Apollo 15 Irwin (test pilot)
- Apollo 16 Duke (test pilot)
- Apollo 17 Schmitt
Commander Prime Crew - Apollo 1 Grissom
- Apollo 7 Schirra
- Apollo 8 Borman
- Apollo 9 McDivitt
- Apollo 10 Stafford
- Apollo 11 Armstrong
- Apollo 12 Conrad
- Apollo 13 Lovell (command module pilot on Apollo 8)
- Apollo 14 Shepard
- Apollo 15 Scott (command module pilot on Apollo 9)
- Apollo 16 Young (command module pilot on Apollo 10)
- Apollo 17 Cernan (lunar module pilot on Apollo 10)
So, the commanders on Apollo 1 through Apollo 12 were assigned based upon performance in Gemini and as backup commander on earlier Apollo missions. Things got interesting on Apollo 13, which could have gone to Gordon Cooper but, for a myriad of reasons not least of which was a perceived lackadaisical attitude as commander on the Apollo 10 backup crew, Shepard had an opening to attempt to "jump the line" and command Apollo 13. He was pushed back to 14, moving Lovell up to prime on 13. Starting with Apollo 15, the pattern becomes clear: fly as command module pilot on a mission, then backup commander three missions later and prime crew commander three missions after that. That would have made Collins commander on the Apollo 14 backup crew and the Apollo 17 prime crew commander, but he turned down the opportunity (opening the door for the only non-test-pilot commander of an Apollo mission, Eugene Cernan, who had excellent backing by among others Alan Shepard and Tom Stafford). Dick Gordon (command module pilot on Apollo 12) would have rotated to command Apollo 18 if it had happened. If the program had continued for another 10 missions or so, I suspect the pattern would have become easier to define. Hope that helps. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1448
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 04-20-2016 02:11 PM
The listing above nicely illustrates my points, but keep in mind the assignments made by Slayton always were of pilots, be they test, combat or operational squadron veterans. You could have some science background with advanced degrees (i.e., Aldrin) but above all you had to have hundreds of hours under your belt as a pilot-in-command.The treatment of the true "scientist-astronauts" by Slayton and management is best saved for another day or thread; suffice to say they all had to earn their wings (not just as a backseater in a T-38) to prove their worth and earn a place on a crew. Some dropped out because of this, but Schmitt and most of the others certainly earned the respect of their peers in the Astronaut Office who were in the "Right Stuff" mold. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 1298
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 04-20-2016 02:34 PM
It should be noted that the commanders of Apollos 1, and 7 through 13 were all command pilots of Gemini missions. |
APG85
Member Posts: 314
From:
Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 04-20-2016 05:28 PM
What I have always found confusing was the guys who were commanders on Gemini flights (e.g. John Young, Jim Lovell) but were not in command on their next flight. You would think that once an astronaut has achieved a commander's seat, he would be in command from there on out... |
perineau
Member Posts: 401
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 04-21-2016 12:53 PM
Interesting reading, thanks one and all! It was sort of like a lottery, wasn't it?
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smh99
Member Posts: 18
From: Australia
Registered: Sep 2015
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posted 04-21-2016 10:52 PM
This topic indirectly raises something that I have wondered — to what extent was an astronaut's personality and temperament considered when selecting a crew? For example, were crew members selected for how well they would work with the commander, or was it largely just assumed that as most had a military background "chain of command" would deal with any potential issues? |
schnappsicle
Member Posts: 410
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 04-22-2016 01:47 PM
The order in which the Mercury astronauts were chosen was based on who Gilruth felt was most ready at the time. When Slayton took over beginning with Gemini and the Group 2 astronauts, he followed the same pattern. Gemini was a two man vehicle. It made no sense to put two veterans on the same flight, so Slayton put one veteran (Mercury) astronaut to command, and the most ready Group 2 astronaut in the pilot's seat. After that flight, the pilot would rotate over into a backup command pilot position and fly six flights later. Obviously Gemini 4 was an exception, but Gemini 3, 5 and 6 were all commanded by Mercury astronauts. Interesting to me, the Mercury astronauts who flew Gemini flew in the same order as they did on Mercury. I'm sure the same can be said for the Apollo astronauts who flew on Gemini. I read somewhere, probably in "Deke," that the command module pilots originally had to have spaceflight experience because they'd have to come home alone if something happened to the other two. Obviously, that only applied to two flights, but that requirement was dropped after Apollo 12. Conrad originally wanted Bean on his crew instead of Williams. Conrad was Bean's instructor at the Naval Test Pilot School. They were best friends even before becoming astronauts. Gordon was another one of Conrad's students. After Williams died, Conrad went to Deke and got Bean pulled from the Apollo Applications group. I've also read that each commander had veto power over his crew. Armstrong was asked if he wanted Aldrin on his Apollo 11 crew. Armstrong felt he could fly with anyone, so he allowed Aldrin to join his team. Some, such as Shepard, had full control over who he flew with. Stafford liked Cernan so much that he chose to fly with him twice. Conrad/Gordon and Stafford/Cernan are the only pair of Apollo astronauts to fly in space together twice. So yes, personalities and connections had as much to do with the selection process as timing and sheer luck. One thing I've observed from looking at the Gemini and Apollo crews is that astronauts flew on the average of every two years or so. With a flight every two months until the first moon landing, that meant a quick turnaround. I wish "Deke" had gone deeper into the selection process. Then again, maybe we just like making it complicated. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1448
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 04-22-2016 02:10 PM
Fascinating scenarios/psychologizing regarding the makeup and selection of flight crews. Will be interesting to read the upcoming George Abbey autobiography to see what he did/didn't learn from watching Deke Slayton in the same shoes. |
rlobinske
Member Posts: 178
From: Crawfordville, FL
Registered: Oct 2014
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posted 04-22-2016 02:27 PM
Borman/Lovell also flew together twice, both times with Borman as commander and Lovell as Pilot. Gemini 7 and then Apollo 8. Lovell was originally the backup command module pilot for Apollo 8 and Collins the prime. When Collins had to have neck surgery, Lovell was moved to the prime crew and Collins moved to the backup crew with Armstrong and Aldrin. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 631
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 04-22-2016 03:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by APG85:
You would think that once an astronaut has achieved a commander's seat, he would be in command from there on out...
I think part of this has to do with the crew to which they were assigned. For Apollo 8, Borman had commander seniority despite having flown fewer missions. Borman had commanded Gemini 7 while Lovell didn't get his first command until Gemini 12. The same can be said for Young. Stafford got his first command on Gemini 9 (tragically of course) and Young on Gemini 10. I wonder how things would have happened if See/Bassett had flown Gemini 9. That would have probably put Stafford as commander or Gemini 12 and Lovell as Gemini 12 backup commander... and affected Apollo down the line. |
schnappsicle
Member Posts: 410
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 04-22-2016 10:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rlobinske:
Borman/Lovell also flew together twice...
Good catch. I guess I forgot about the Borman/Lovell connection because it wasn't really planned. I was thinking more about commanders who deliberately chose a particular crewmate as opposed to the bad luck scenario that befell Collins. |
perineau
Member Posts: 401
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-29-2024 11:15 AM
Why starting with Apollo 12, only rookie astronauts got assigned to the remaining Apollo missions as lunar module pilots?Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 52154
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-29-2024 04:22 PM
My understanding of what Deke Slayton and others have written about the process is that the lunar module pilot was the Apollo equivalent of the pilot position on Gemini. If you were only flying two people, you assigned your experienced crew member to be the command pilot and your rookie to pilot, so the rookie could gain experience.On Apollo, the command module pilot and mission commander were both the equivalent of Gemini's command pilot, with the commander taking over for the command module pilot when both were together (with exceptions). So again, you assigned your experienced crew members to the command positions, which only left your lunar module pilot seat open to giving a rookie a chance to fly and gain experience. |
rasorenson
Member Posts: 128
From: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 03-29-2024 04:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rlobinske:
...Collins moved to the backup crew with Armstrong and Aldrin.
Picking up on this post from 2016, Apollo 8 lunar module pilot backup was Fred Haise. Aldrin was backup command module pilot. Collins was not part of the Apollo 8 backup crew after being replaced by Lovell. |
Henry Heatherbank
Member Posts: 323
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 03-29-2024 07:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by schnappsicle:
Interesting to me, the Mercury astronauts who flew Gemini flew in the same order as they did on Mercury.
No, Cooper (MA-9) flew Gemini V before Schirra (MA-8) flew Gemini VI-A. |
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