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Author
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Topic: Getting Lovell and Haise to be moonwalkers?
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Jonnyed
Member Posts: 408
From: Dumfries, VA, USA
Registered: Aug 2014
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posted 05-23-2015 09:40 PM
   
After the failure to get Jim Lovell and Fred Haise to the moon during the Apollo 13 mission, were there plans to try again to get those two to the lunar surface in follow-on missions? I read where Haise was possibly slotted to command one of the Apollo J-missions that was subsequently canceled. True? And what about Lovell? |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 582
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 05-23-2015 10:15 PM
Fred Haise was the back-up commander for Apollo 16, which would have likely made him the commander for Apollo 19. No crew for Apollo 19 was ever named, but given the traditional rotation, it would have been Haise's mission.As for Lovell, he was never assigned to another flight after Apollo 13. I think he had always intended for 13 to be his final flight. Even if he had wanted to continue flying, I doubt he would have gotten an additional Apollo mission. No astronaut ended up commanding more than one mission during the Apollo program (not including Apollo Applications based flights). |
Henry Heatherbank
Member Posts: 250
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 05-24-2015 03:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RichieB16:
No astronaut ended up commanding more than one mission during the Apollo program (not including Apollo Applications based flights).
...or ASTP (Stafford). |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-24-2015 12:48 PM
While no Apollo CDR ever commanded a second Apollo mission (except for Skylab and ASTP) I don't believe it was ever a rule. If you recall, Deke Slayton asked Frank Borman after Apollo 8 if he was interested in commanding the first lunar landing. I think as the later landings were removed from the schedule, it made sense to offer an astronaut just one command.
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RichieB16
Member Posts: 582
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 05-24-2015 08:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Heatherbank:
...or ASTP (Stafford).
I was sorta lumping that into Apollo applications. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 05-25-2015 08:32 AM
The Apollo 16 backup crew was originally supposed to have been Haise, Pogue and Carr with the plan being for them to subsequently be named as the prime crew for Apollo 19. After Apollo 19 was officially cancelled in Sept. 1970, Pogue and Carr were reassigned to Skylab to give them a chance to fly rather than toil in what became a dead end backup role. They were eventually replaced by Roosa and Mitchell on the Apollo 16 backup crew.Lovell had flown 4 times and to the moon not once but twice. If the lunar landing program had been ambitious and open-ended (with projects such as MOLAB planned beyond Apollo 19) he might have had another shot. But with the finite number of slots actually available when Apollo 13 splashed down, it really wasn't in the cards. Lovell was quoted as saying something to the effect that "he'd feel the pain of a million stab wounds" from his colleagues if he had pushed for a fifth mission. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 05-25-2015 02:21 PM
Could Lovell (Apollo 13) be appointed CMDR in the last Skylab mission as Conrad (Apollo 12) was CMDR in the first? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 05-25-2015 02:30 PM
If Lovell had really really wanted another flight the real question is how long would he have had to wait. I think he would eventually have flown a 5th time, but Skylab seems a remote possibility. ASTP might have been available if Stafford had retired to run for office, but he didn't. He could have taken over as Chief Astronaut for the Space Shuttle like John Young eventually did and commanded STS-1. That would have been an 11 year wait. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 05-25-2015 06:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
Deke Slayton asked Frank Borman after Apollo 8 if he was interested in commanding the first lunar landing. I think as the later landings were removed from the schedule, it made sense to offer an astronaut just one command.
Offered is a strong word. I think Slayton considered Borman, but once it became clear that Borman intended to retire after Apollo 8 Slayton decided to stick with the rotation and assign Neil Armstrong's crew - on some level Slayton frankly seemed reluctant to assign a hand-picked crew to Apollo 11 because it was hard to, on paper, because there were no guarantees of successful flights of the LEM on Apollos 9 and 10 - which would necessitate bumping the landing. But switching back to Lovell, he, alone with Frank Borman and Wally Schirra had made clear to Slayton, that before their missions, they were ready to stop flying. I think that put Lovell in a bind as far as being assigned a future flight goes. I feel Slayton's attitude was that if you were ready to step out of the rotation, then that was it - and he had plenty of people to put on the flight-line in your place. |
calcheyup
Member Posts: 125
From:
Registered: May 2014
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posted 05-25-2015 09:08 PM
"Slayton had all but offered him the first landing, but Borman turned it down. He appreciated Slayton's confidence, he told him, but he doubted he could get his crew ready for a landing mission in time...if Apollo was a war, then a crucial battle was almost won; let someone else have the final victory." - p. 128, of Chaikin's "A Man on the Moon."From that passage, it seems like Slayton was pretty serious about giving it to Borman if he wanted it. But alas, I think I can actually see the hair splitting right now. |
schnappsicle
Member Posts: 396
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 05-26-2015 06:56 AM
Lovell announced before the Apollo 13 flight that it would be his last flight. He might have changed his mind after the flight, but going into it, that was what he'd decided. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 05-26-2015 12:13 PM
Imagine the posts we would have written today if Lovell and Haise were given another mission! "How could they have bumped (fill in the names!) for those two?" |
calcheyup
Member Posts: 125
From:
Registered: May 2014
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posted 05-26-2015 01:05 PM
LOL, great point.One thing I've always found interesting about Apollo 8, and it speaks volumes about Frank Borman's character, is that he was named CDR over Lovell despite less spaceflight experience. I assume it also probably had a lot to do with Borman being in command of Gemini 7 with Lovell. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 05-26-2015 02:10 PM
And maybe the fact the Lovell was more likely to accept not being CDR than Borman. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-26-2015 02:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by calcheyup:
One thing I've always found interesting about Apollo 8, and it speaks volumes about Frank Borman's character, is that he was named CDR over Lovell despite less spaceflight experience.
Very similar to John Young and Tom Stafford on Apollo 10. While Young and Stafford both had two previous missions, Young did fly before Stafford. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 05-26-2015 02:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
Young did fly before Stafford.
But doesn't 6 and 9 trump 3 and 10? 
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RichieB16
Member Posts: 582
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 05-26-2015 02:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by calcheyup:
...is that he was named CDR over Lovell despite less spaceflight experience.
I think it all has to do with seniority. It was based off military seniority for test pilots... those who flew first were more senior. Borman commanded a mission before Lovell, for that reason alone he was probably named commander of Apollo 8 over Lovell despite having fewer missions. |
calcheyup
Member Posts: 125
From:
Registered: May 2014
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posted 05-26-2015 03:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
While Young and Stafford both had two previous missions, Young did fly before Stafford.
True, but Young only got "ahead" of Stafford by default, due to Shepard being taken off flight status. Shepard/Stafford was Slayton's first choice for Gemini 3. Factoring that in, it makes a bit more sense that Stafford was chosen to command on 10 instead of Young. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-26-2015 05:17 PM
No argument here. I always felt that in the second group of astronauts there were three astronauts who had a slight edge over the remaining six... McDivitt, Borman and Armstrong. And with the exception of one brief back-up assignment (Borman on GT-3) all served strictly in the CDR role in both Gemini and Apollo.Wonder if this ever was a factor in McDivitt's mind, in not accepting the assignment as LMP on Apollo 13? |
calcheyup
Member Posts: 125
From:
Registered: May 2014
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posted 05-26-2015 06:20 PM
According to Michael Cassutt (source), who wrote "Deke!", McDivitt was never offered a position as LMP on 13 under Shepard. It was, essentially, "Slayton and Shepard asked me if I'd be interested in flying with Shepard... I said no." There was no discussion of McDivitt as LM pilot, though that was obviously one of a couple of options — the other being McDivitt as CDR and Shepard as LMP. McDivitt undoubtedly could have had a lunar command, had he wanted it. The legend that his only ticket to the moon was serving under Shepard — or that he was ever formally offered a position serving under Shepard — is just that, a legend. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 582
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 05-26-2015 07:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by calcheyup:
Factoring that in, it makes a bit more sense that Stafford was chosen to command on 10 instead of Young.
I think you are exactly right. I also think that Stafford getting bumped to the prime CDR spot on Gemini IX-A also helped. That gave him CDR experience ahead of Young. |
Rusty53
Member Posts: 50
From: Rochester, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 05-26-2015 08:49 PM
Wasn't Lovell originally the CMP for Neil Armstrong's crew and he moved to Borman's crew only as a result of Michael Collin's neck surgery? So, in reality Borman wasn't named CDR over Lovell — but Armstrong was? |
calcheyup
Member Posts: 125
From:
Registered: May 2014
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posted 05-26-2015 09:00 PM
Great point. I completely forgot about that, although the spirit of my point stands, I guess, given that Armstrong also had fewer spaceflights than Lovell. Good catch. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 582
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 05-26-2015 10:07 PM
Well, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Borman the backup commander of the original Apollo 2 (Block I reflight) mission before it was cancelled in late 1966? I think the crew was: - Command Pilot: Borman
- Senior Pilot (CMP): Stafford
- Pilot (LMP): Collins
Now, that is what I have read, and that one seems to defy all logic. But, I think they were Schirra, Eisele and Cunningham's original backups. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 05-27-2015 05:11 PM
Correct. The 205 crew was: - Prime: Schirra, Eisele, Cunningham
- Backup: Borman, Stafford, Collins
What exactly about it defies logic? When looking at the Nine and the order they flew a few things need to be kept in mind. First, the flights they were assigned to were of a hand-picked nature. McDivitt was assigned as a CDR to GT-4 because Slayton wanted to give a member of the new group an early shot at command. Stafford was pointed at GT-6 partly because of his strength in rendezvous. Borman, Slayton seems to have been convinced was the best choice to fly the 14 day long duration mission starting out as a possible pilot, before being pointed to it as CDR. Bottom line is, the order Slayton ranked them isn't as simple as "well, they flew first so they were ahead in the pecking order." Further, when they transitioned to Apollo is a key factor. McDivitt and Borman were the first of the Nine to move from Gemini to Apollo, right after their Gemini missions. Stafford, Young, Lovell and Conrad all flew a second flight on Gemini, but I don't think that was a factor in how Slayton ranked them comparative to McDivitt and Borman. Slayton had the confidence in them tackling the problems of Apollo's hardware development and because of that and the knowledge they gained about Apollo, ranked them as mission commanders, even above peers who had flown a second flight to their one flight each. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 582
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 05-28-2015 10:16 PM
I suppose now that I look at it again...my original comment about getting an earlier command also makes sense for that backup Apollo 2 crew. Stafford may have flown before Borman...but Borman was more senior in the sense that he was given an earlier command.But, your statement that Borman had been in Apollo longer and thus had more experience with the hardware also makes a lot of sense. |
webhamster
Member Posts: 106
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 06-03-2015 08:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RichieB16:
Stafford may have flown before Borman...
Well, technically, Borman flew before Stafford since GT-7 launched before GT-6.  Or do we go by splashdown time... |
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