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Topic: Apollo 11: Formal decision for moon landing
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Headshot Member Posts: 891 From: Vancouver, WA, USA Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 05-10-2015 10:46 AM
When was the formal decision made that Apollo 11 would make the first lunar landing attempt and who made it?Apollo 10 splashed down on 26 May 1969 and almost immediately Sam Phillips released the Apollo 10 Post Launch Mission Operation Report (the cover sheet was dated 26 May 1969). On Wednesday 11 June 1969 NASA announced to the public that Apollo 11 would attempt the first lunar landing. Exactly when was this decided? Was there a meeting? If so, who attended that meeting? Was this the decision of a group or one person? Does any cSer know when Apollo 11's crew was formally notified? |
Fra Mauro Member Posts: 1624 From: Bethpage, N.Y. Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 05-11-2015 08:42 AM
I can't give you dates but I have read that when Armstrong was notified of the formal assignment to Apollo 11, he was told that it would be the first landing attempt, if Apollos 9 and 10 went well. This was early January 1969. |
Headshot Member Posts: 891 From: Vancouver, WA, USA Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 05-11-2015 08:55 AM
I have heard that as well.What I am interested in is learning exactly when the final, formal decision was made. Obviously Apollo management and engineers had to review the results of Apollo 10 and decide if all the CSM and LM discrepancies and performance anomalies were show stoppers or not. Some one person, or some group, had to finally say, "OK, Apollo 11 has the go-ahead to make the landing attempt," or words to that effect. |
onesmallstep Member Posts: 1313 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 05-11-2015 11:13 AM
The two key people who would have made a decision for a landing attempt by Apollo 11 after 10's splashdown would have been Gen. Sam Phillips, Apollo Program director, and NASA Administrator Tom Paine. Phillips would have reviewed any preliminary report by the people at MSC in Houston and other branches, and forwarded a recommendation to Washington for final approval. I'm sure a memo/letter/document exists in the archives somewhere to that effect. |
moorouge Member Posts: 2458 From: U.K. Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 05-11-2015 11:42 AM
The announcement that Armstrong was to be first to walk on the Moon was made in April 1969. Might this coincide with the final decision to go for the landing? |
Paul78zephyr Member Posts: 678 From: Hudson, MA Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 05-11-2015 06:57 PM
Not within the context of what Headshot is asking as Apollo 10 had not flown yet. I think he is looking for some type of formal document that would have been issued after the conclusion of Apollo 10 on May 26 1969. |
Headshot Member Posts: 891 From: Vancouver, WA, USA Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 05-12-2015 06:51 AM
Yes, I am looking for some sort of document or minutes of a meeting that was written between 26 May and 11 June 1969.Apollo directors/managers/engineers had to conduct some sort of formal review of Apollo 10's flight before Apollo 11 could be given the OK to attempt a landing. Of note, there were three launch vehicle discrepancies, 25 CSM discrepancies, 15 LM discrepancies and one mission support discrepancy that needed to be evaluated, reviewed and resolved/waived. In my opinion, two of these, the raggedy S-IVB performance during TLI and "large attitude excursions" prior to and during LM staging could have been potential show-stoppers for Apollo 11. So my question remains, when did this take place and who gave the go-ahead? |
onesmallstep Member Posts: 1313 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 05-12-2015 08:43 AM
From 'Foothold in the Heavens: The Seventies' by Ben Evans (Springer, 2010); chapter 2 entitled 'Luna incognita,', pages 159-160: Due to the need for favorable lighting and tracking conditions, only a few days were available each month to launch for a particular landing site on the moon... NASA headquarters, in particular, was fearful that there was just too much still to do to support a July launch. The decision had to made soon, because the Saturn V had been on Pad 39A since late May and technicians were almost set to begin loading hypergolic propellants aboard the Apollo spacecraft; these were so corrosive that they could not sit in the ship's plumbing for more than a few weeks."Unsurprisingly, the astronauts opposed the idea of postponing until August; they told Deke Slayton they would be ready and felt the additional time would make things only marginally better. After a nine-hour flight readiness review on 17 June, Sam Phillips formally announced 16 July as Apollo 11's date with destiny. |
Paul78zephyr Member Posts: 678 From: Hudson, MA Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 05-12-2015 01:56 PM
quote: Originally posted by onesmallstep: From 'Foothold in the Heavens: The Seventies'
Not to change subjects but I find it interesting that this sequence of events is chronicled in the authors volume about 'The 1970s' and not in his volume about the 1950s and 1960s. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 05-17-2015 11:57 AM
Here is an article about the Grumman Engineering log book for the LM-5 lunar module construction. Unfortunately, the pdf link to the book seems to be broken.The article mentions an entry in the log book regarding George Low in which he notes that "this is very likely to be the LM to land on the moon - it should be". |
Jonnyed Member Posts: 408 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
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posted 05-17-2015 12:44 PM
There is still a problem with the timeline:"Foothold" states that "After a nine-hour flight readiness review on 17 June, Sam Phillips formally announced..." yet the original posting to the thread claims, "On Wednesday 11 June 1969 NASA announced to the public that Apollo 11 would attempt the first lunar landing." That's almost a whole week discrepancy. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-17-2015 12:58 PM
The flight readiness review (FRR) set the launch date, not the mission. The decision to land or not land would have been made before the FRR convened. |
Jonnyed Member Posts: 408 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
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posted 05-17-2015 01:16 PM
Thanks Robert for that info. I guess I am surprised that NASA would announce Apollo 11 as the mission to go to the moon but would not be able to tell the public (for another week) the planned launch date, particularly with only a few months left in Kennedy's goal of landing on the moon before the decade it out.If there was still an internal debate of whether it should be pushed back to August or not that seems to indicate that there were some remaining discrepancies, even after the June 11 "go" announcement, but that they were not significant. I'm relatively new to "space history"-- so maybe that was "par for the course" in NASA public affairs, to parse out or to sequence announcements like that? |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-17-2015 01:32 PM
The date may have been public before the FRR; the meeting confirms the date and that the team is ready to go fly. As NASA defines the flight readiness review: As its name suggests, a Flight Readiness Review, or FRR, gives teams responsible for various elements of a NASA flight mission an opportunity to ensure technical questions raised at earlier reviews have been adequately dealt with and to raise concerns about anything else that might affect mission success. ...the reviews gather team members in one meeting room, where they report on their areas of responsibility and, at the end of the session, express their judgment in a "go" or "no-go" flight decision. Most often, technical issues that could affect the flight are studied and resolved by engineers before the meeting; their work is reviewed and discussed and the session usually ends in a unanimous "go" decision. At the Apollo 11 FRR, the readiness of the Saturn V, command, service and lunar modules, the tracking stations, the crew, the flight control team and more would have been confirmed to make sure they were ready to go fly on the targeted date. |
One Big Monkey Member Posts: 171 From: West Yorkshire, UK Registered: Jul 2012
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posted 06-09-2015 10:41 AM
This edition of the JSC in-house journal 'Roundup' from January '69 announces Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins as the Apollo 11 crew likely to make the first landing.The newsletter is a great read full of interesting nuggets about Gemini and Apollo. |
Jonnyed Member Posts: 408 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
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posted 06-09-2015 08:25 PM
I find it interesting that the Roundup (document from previous post) refers to the Apollo missions using roman numerals throughout the publication. For example, Apollo 11 as Apollo XI. Why? Seems strange for a newsprint publication.Was there some convention about using roman numerals for space flights among certain cliques or writers? Some mission patches had roman numerals, and some mission patches had conventional. Any rhyme or reason? |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-09-2015 08:52 PM
Per SP-4402 Origins of NASA Names: Until 1969, NASA chose roman numerals to designate successful flight missions, although there were notable exceptions.In the Mercury program, the choice of the number "7" by the original seven Mercury astronauts precluded the use of roman numerals for the [x] spacecraft. Project Gemini was the only manned program to use roman numerals, and even its early unmanned flights were named by the Mercury system (Gemini-Titan 1, Gemini-Titan 2). The use of roman numerals has caused some confusion regarding the first moon landing. More than one news anchor, dating back to the time of the mission, referred to it as "Apollo Two" after seeing "Apollo 11" and reading it as "Apollo II". |
moorouge Member Posts: 2458 From: U.K. Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 06-10-2015 12:58 AM
quote: Originally posted by Jonnyed: For example, Apollo 11 as Apollo XI. Why?
The reason why Apollo XI became Apollo 11 is well documented in discussions on the mission patch design. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-10-2015 01:22 AM
Collins doesn't make much of it in "Carrying the Fire"; just ascribes it to the crew's preference: I also penciled APOLLO around the top of my circular design and ELEVEN around the bottom. Neil didn't like the ELEVEN because it wouldn't be understandable to foreigners, so after trying XI and 11, we settled on the latter and put APOLLO 11 around the top. |
onesmallstep Member Posts: 1313 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 06-10-2015 09:49 AM
Of course, it's worth noting that an accurate, authentic-looking Apollo 11 patch would have the number eleven with the 'hooks' on the top so it doesn't look like 'Apollo II.' |
cosmic_buffalo Member Posts: 58 From: Dayton, Ohio Registered: Jul 2014
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posted 07-03-2015 10:26 PM
The decision for a lunar landing was made well before Armstrong was set to be first, although it may have coincided roughly with the crew selection. Some time went by with Aldrin pleading publicly and privately to be first. Armstrong largely kept silent on this even though he had already been made commander. Aldrin made multiple statements and references to the tradition of ship captains not being first to step off into new lands. Finally, after one such occurrence, Armstrong broke his silence and said he would do the honors and that was that. Buzz went quiet (All based on "Rocket Men" by Craig Nelson). |
David C Member Posts: 1039 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 07-03-2015 11:38 PM
Don't think I'd base anything on that book. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-03-2015 11:59 PM
Unfortunately, "Rocket Men" is a significantly flawed book with so many factual errors that it cannot stand as a reference.In this case, Armstrong never spoke out about being first out; that was a story instigated and invented by Paul Haney, who had recently resigned as a NASA public affairs officer. Both Aldrin and Armstrong confirmed the story was false. As for Aldrin's "campaign," it was largely instigated on the behest of, and to some degree, carried out by his father without his permission behind the scenes. His own questioning was to drive a decision one way or the other. |
cosmic_buffalo Member Posts: 58 From: Dayton, Ohio Registered: Jul 2014
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posted 07-06-2015 05:14 PM
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I was not aware "Rocket Men" wasn't a fair record. Good to know. |