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  Apollo 12: Stand-up EVA at the Ocean of Storms

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Author Topic:   Apollo 12: Stand-up EVA at the Ocean of Storms
area51
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From: Canton, Michigan, USA
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posted 03-18-2014 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for area51   Click Here to Email area51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have firm evidence of a standup EVA on the Apollo 12 moon landing?

mach3valkyrie
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From: Albany, Oregon USA
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posted 03-18-2014 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mach3valkyrie   Click Here to Email mach3valkyrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only one I ever heard of took place on Apollo 15.

Mike Dixon
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posted 03-18-2014 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Dixon   Click Here to Email Mike Dixon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Correct. Only Apollo 15 had the standup EVA.

Tom
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posted 03-18-2014 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If not true... very interesting.

Blackarrow
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From: Belfast, United Kingdom
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posted 03-18-2014 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In short, no-one has any evidence of it because it didn't happen.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-18-2014 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't suppose the narrator of the linked video ever bothered to actually contact Sandra Wagner, editor of the NASA report he cites, to inquire about her sources for the single paragraph (51 words) on which he hinges his entire theory.
The blowing dust caused by the Apollo 12 LM landing appears to have been worse than that of Apollo 11. In fact, a standup extravehicular activity (EVA) was performed by the crew to assess the site prior to performing lunar surface EVAs because blowing dust completely obscured the view during landing.
Because, you know, NASA has never, ever made a mistake citing its own history. (That's sarcasm, if my tone isn't perfectly clear.)

area51
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posted 03-18-2014 08:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for area51   Click Here to Email area51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
According to the Apollo Technical Air to Ground Voice Transcriptions... there is a 9 minute gap in air to ground communications. (4d, 15h, 9m, 31s to 4d, 15h, 18m, 34s). Seems strange for two people who landed on the Moon to stop talking for 9 minutes. So was this the time period where Apollo 12 conducted a SEVA?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 03-18-2014 08:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The air to ground transcripts make it clear what they were doing during the comm break — Conrad had entered a wrong value into the computer:
And we entered one wrong number and did a Verb 32. Is there any way to wipe out that set of marks, now that we did a Verb 32?
...and, after checking with the ground, is redoing the program:
MCC: The simplest thing to do is do the program over.

Conrad: We agree. Bye-bye.

It took Scott and Irwin on Apollo 15 over an hour to do a stand-up EVA, including pre- and post-activities. It is not a serious suggestion that one could be done in 9 minutes.

area51
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posted 03-18-2014 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for area51   Click Here to Email area51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...good point!

chet
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posted 03-18-2014 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suppose Alan Bean (or Richard Gordon) could be asked this question directly at the upcoming Spacefest.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 03-19-2014 12:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sure, but it's a waste of their of time. The question is not that much different than asking if they saw floating glass pyramids or were on a sound stage in Hollywood...

David C
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From: Pasadena
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posted 03-19-2014 03:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
True, but it may be worth asking Alan Bean if they had any EVA concerns in view of the increased dust. My guess is no, the LM weight was being supported and they did not resort to any Apollo 11 style (Armstrong) safety tether.

Fra Mauro
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posted 03-19-2014 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another point — if they had to do an unscripted Stand-Up EVA, why keep it a dark secret? This is enjoyable to listen to but not believable.

David C
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posted 03-19-2014 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And another thing, I'm not convinced that a SEVA would be any more useful in this regard than just standing on the ladder and looking. I'd love to know her source, sounds very unlikely.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 03-19-2014 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I contacted Sandra Wagner about the report. She confirmed it was simply a typo.
This was an editing error. I have submitted a request for the following errata:

Errata: On page 1, in the observations section, the second paragraph states, "The blowing dust caused by the Apollo 12 LM landing appears to have been worse than that of Apollo 11. In fact, a standup extravehicular activity (EVA) was performed by the crew to assess the site prior to performing lunar surface EVAs because blowing dust completely obscured the view during landing." The sentence contains an error and is changed to, "The blowing dust caused by the Apollo 15 LM landing appears to have been worse than that of Apollo 11. In fact, a standup extravehicular activity (EVA) was performed by the crew to assess the site prior to performing lunar surface EVAs because blowing dust completely obscured the view during landing."

One Big Monkey
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From: West Yorkshire, UK
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posted 03-19-2014 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for One Big Monkey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looking at the Apollo 12 landing video, it's possible to see that while there is indeed considerable dust generated on landing, like other landings it vanishes into the distance as soon as the engine is stopped - the view would have been clear.

The pre-EVA panorama shown at the ALSJ seems to present a crystal clear view, so why would an S-EVA be of any use.

I have a general rule of thumb with these claims. If you search the internet for a particular claim and the first couple of pages of results entirely consist of conspiracy websites, it's pretty much garbage.

David C
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From: Pasadena
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posted 03-19-2014 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The sentence contains an error and is changed to, "The blowing dust caused by the Apollo 15 LM landing appears to have been worse than that of Apollo 11. In fact, a standup extravehicular activity (EVA) was performed by the crew to assess the site prior to performing lunar surface EVAs because blowing dust completely obscured the view during landing.
Huh. My understanding was that the Apollo 15 SEVA was pre-planned for geology purposes, not as any real-time reaction to dust on approach. At best this "corrected version" gives a misleading impression.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 03-19-2014 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A good catch and I have responded to Wagner to let her know. But for the purposes of the topic at hand, it still is clear she never intended to state that Apollo 12 had performed a stand-up EVA.

Blackarrow
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From: Belfast, United Kingdom
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posted 03-19-2014 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Surely the bottom line here is that even if there had been an operational need to carry out an unplanned site survey by means of a SEVA (and there is no evidence of such a need) there is absolutely no reason to have kept it secret.

Tom
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posted 03-19-2014 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The correction indicating Apollo 15 (instead of 12) is very odd... it's a well known fact that the SEVA was planned on "15" prior to launch.

Intrepid was targeted to land east of Surveyor crater. In fact, it landed northwest of the crater. I don't believe the crew had any identifiable landmarks in their initial view facing west. Until they actually got a chance to look towards the east, they may not have known how far they missed their target.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-19-2014 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
The correction indicating Apollo 15 (instead of 12) is very odd...
To be honest, I think she saw my note about Apollo 15 being the only mission that performed a SEVA and issued the errata in response. Keep in mind, this is a 2006 report that was prepared for a program that no longer exists...

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