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  Apollo 15: Mission Control and Irwin's heart issues (Page 3)

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Author Topic:   Apollo 15: Mission Control and Irwin's heart issues
Blackarrow
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Posts: 2411
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-25-2014 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Al Worden's reported observation reinforces the points I have made in this debate and is entirely consistent with the account set out in his recent book.

This debate has seen differences of opinion on the matter, but it remains the case that the two central figures, Dave Scott and Al Worden, believe that Mission Control was wrong not to inform the mission commander that one of his crew members had suffered significant heart irregularities.

I have offered the explanation that Mission Control did not want a dialogue about Irwin's health because they feared that it might have impacted on the forthcoming deep-space EVA. Al Worden, the man who conducted that historic spacewalk, clearly holds the same view, and he ought to know.

moorouge
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Posts: 2007
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009

posted 09-27-2014 03:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
I have offered the explanation that Mission Control did not want a dialogue about Irwin's health because they feared that it might have impacted on the forthcoming deep-space EVA. Al Worden, the man who conducted that historic spacewalk, clearly holds the same view, and he ought to know.
Geoffrey, this maybe true. However, this is only the case if it can be conclusively proved that there were sufficient concerns AT THE TIME that Irwin's health was a major concern. Going back over this thread, I would suggest that many contributions to this discussion have raised sufficient doubts to suggest that this was not the case.

That NASA considered the recovery of film cassettes more important than the life of one of its astronauts requires much more evidence than the recollections of someone forty plus years after the event however illustrious.

Blackarrow
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Posts: 2411
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-27-2014 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The two most important opinions on this issue are not mine or yours, Eddie, but those of the most closely involved: Dave Scott and Al Worden. I am content to accept their opinions on the issue.

moorouge
Member

Posts: 2007
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009

posted 09-28-2014 02:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
I am content to accept their opinions on the issue.

Geoffrey, I'm not disputing the validity of Dave Scott's and Al Worden's opinions. All I'm trying to point out is that at the time neither of them were aware of concerns on the ground about Irwin's health. Therefore, it follows, does it not, that those opinions have to be coloured by inputs of information received from a variety of sources after the landing and their own individual processing of that information.

I think it's worth repeating at this point what a wise man replied to the question, "What is the truth?" His reply was, "The truth is whatever you want it to be!"

Blackarrow
Member

Posts: 2411
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-28-2014 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Geoffrey, I'm not disputing the validity of Dave Scott's and Al Worden's opinions. All I'm trying to point out is that at the time neither of them were aware of concerns on the ground about Irwin's health...
And that is precisely the point. As mission commander, Scott should have been made aware of the situation.

Space Cadet Carl
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Posts: 94
From: Lake Orion, Michigan
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 09-30-2014 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space Cadet Carl   Click Here to Email Space Cadet Carl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can't believe posters have been beating up on each other for three full pages on this issue. Wish we could get a closing comment directly from Scott.

moorouge
Member

Posts: 2007
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009

posted 09-30-2014 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Space Cadet Carl:
Can't believe posters have been beating up on each other for three full pages on this issue.
I wouldn't dream of 'beating up Geoffrey'. Besides, he's bigger than me and has a shillelagh.

David C
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Posts: 362
From: Pasadena
Registered: Apr 2012

posted 09-30-2014 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Space Cadet Carl:
Can't believe posters have been beating up on each other for three full pages on this issue.
I been sat watching and eating popcorn. I'm with Geoffrey (Blackarrow).

calcheyup
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Posts: 106
From:
Registered: May 2014

posted 09-30-2014 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for calcheyup     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Space Cadet Carl:
Wish we could get a closing comment directly from Scott.
Well that would take the fun right out of it, wouldn't it?

MCroft04
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Posts: 1373
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 09-30-2014 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MCroft04   Click Here to Email MCroft04     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm still with Geoffrey. The commander has to be in the loop.

Fra Mauro
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Posts: 1208
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-01-2014 07:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think one of the reasons we spend so much time on threads like this is because the past of space flight and crew issues is so much more interesting than today.

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 32867
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-01-2014 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If Apollo 15 flew today, Mission Control might be legally prohibited from informing David Scott of Jim Irwin's medical condition due to federal health privacy laws (assuming of course Irwin did not waive his rights).

(As for the suggestion of the past being more interesting than the present, this is a space history site, so it is to be expected that its readers would be drawn to questions about the past. Other forums dealing primarily with current events go on for just as many posts about the intricacies of today's activities in space.)

moorouge
Member

Posts: 2007
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009

posted 10-01-2014 09:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
...today's activities in space.
With tongue firmly in cheek, might I suggest that this sentence should read "inactivities" rather than "activities" in space.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 32867
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-01-2014 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not to completely derail this thread, but even tongue in cheek, there's more going on in space today than ever before in history. It is just that some like to only focus on major milestones rather than the work needed to reach them.

Interest is in the eye of the beholder. The general public was as interested in Apollo 15 as they are in today's activities on the International Space Station.

GACspaceguy
Member

Posts: 1842
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 10-01-2014 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GACspaceguy   Click Here to Email GACspaceguy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
...space flight and crew issues is so much more interesting than today
I think back during Apollo, the missions became few and far between so these flights became individual, i.e. six moon missions. Therefore we hang on and discuss every detail as they are few.

To me the ISS flights are similar to the Skylab missions back in the day, they are on going and abundant with daily activity you cannot hold onto every detail. Read the book "House in Space" by Henry Cooper and see what the daily activities and issue were. However we rarely discuss those missions here. I think if you kept up with the daily activities on ISS we would have a lot to discuss here as well.

Then when you add in the fact that the ISS is full up with "visiting" vehicles, that there are three new manned vehicles NASA is working, a test flight of one this year and the SLS development ongoing, it is hard to say that there is inactivity, in my humble opinion.

ChaseClark
New Member

Posts: 5
From: Pensacola, FL USA
Registered: Nov 2014

posted 07-25-2015 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ChaseClark   Click Here to Email ChaseClark     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Walter Dermody recited a story to me about when he was testing the LM and Irwin joined him unexpectedly aboard the vehicle. He stated that when he was done, that he was initially unable to rouse Irwin as apparently he was in a meditative trance.

One reader of the article suggested that Irwin might not have been in a trance so much as experienced a precursor stroke. While I find that implausible, it did make me wonder how much we know about Irwin's meditation habits? Was this occurrence unusual or a common thing?


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