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Author
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Topic: Defending Apollo from hoax claims
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Gilbert
Member Posts: 1340
From: Carrollton, GA USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 11-19-2007 02:23 PM
   
Can anyone explain why the history of space exploration is not taught in U.S. schools? Ignoring one of humankind's greatest achievements is somewhat irresponsible, or so it seems to me. |
R.Glueck
Member Posts: 115
From: Winterport, Maine, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 11-19-2007 07:52 PM
Spaceflight is still treated as somewhat irrelevant by the education hierarchy. If a teacher (myself, for example) teaches it, it's almost as an elective, and without supporting materials. Let's face it, most teachers are not as interested as we are, nor are they versed in the subtle differences between spacecraft and achievements. Lastly, the bulk of modern teachers did not live through the "golden years" (NOT Dan Goldin). I wish I had a dime for every time some person of responsibility calls everything from a Mercury capsule to Voyager a "shuttle". A board member at the local Challenger Center was discussing the history of spaceflight with me and referred to every space mentioned as a "Challenger", no matter what the era or mission!Spaceflight is generally tacked onto the solar system unit, and plenty of people don't dispute the Apollo landings, because they think the shuttle is going to and from the moon on a regular basis! The development of spacecraft, and the requirements for future voyagers into deep space are on the back shelf for right now, or at least until we go back into deep space. It's one of the great educational tragedies of the last 50 years, but Congress tossed NASA's best efforts aside in 1973, and we've regressed steadily since then. As a teacher I carry the torch, but I'm a rarity, I'm afraid. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 11-21-2007 05:41 PM
I do teach a class on the space program in high school. It is a senior elective and the class size varies from about a dozen to about 25 each year. |
keelerphoto
Member Posts: 55
From: sherman Oaks
Registered: Apr 2007
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posted 11-22-2007 05:18 AM
They should show original 16mm films again in class from the 60s and 70s, telling the students there were no computers or Photoshop to alter the films, having the non-people inspect the 16mm films if in question. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2178
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 11-22-2007 07:15 AM
In my opinion, the best thing to do when hoaxers claim the moon landings never happened is to ignore them. For many (most?) you will never convince them no matter how much data you provide, and you will just walk away frustrated. |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 11-26-2007 12:24 AM
I agree, but I still make sure I leave links, images, etc., available to lurkers so that they can investigate themselves, and determine for themselves that the HBs are quite simply wrong.Trying to convince the majority of these 'fanatical' believers is futile; nothing whatsoever will sway them from their belief. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4494
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-05-2007 12:14 PM
A similar debate is taking place about the Chang'e 1 mission. See The Guardian: At last - a moon picture that really is fake? Did China really go to the moon? It took just a matter of hours before bloggers started noticing uncanny similarities between the first images sent back by China's flagship lunar probe Chang'e-1 recently, and those taken by NASA two years ago. For the conspiracy theorists, it was too good to be true. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 12-05-2007 01:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Obviousman:
Trying to convince the majority of these 'fanatical' believers is futile; nothing whatsoever will sway them from their belief.
I agree, but only to a point. The fanatical believer in the hoax viewpoint will likely not be swayed. However, not all hoax-believers are of the fanatical nature. Many are simply average people who never really put a lot of thought into the subject and swallowed some of the programs (hook, line, and sinker) that proposed the hoax theories...without taking the time to research the other side. Sometimes, all it takes is a calm, rational, and logical argument to the contrary to set some people straight. While, on the surface, it may seem like wasted energy to convince someone of the validity of the moon landings, remember that these people may someday thell their children "oh, those moon landings never happened." Then you have another generation of kids poisoned against the space program. |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 12-06-2007 10:13 PM
Oh, absolutely. Many are victims of "misinformation", which we are often accused of promoting!That's why I remarked about links, etc. Some people can be encouraged to research the matter themselves. Others need to be led through the various aspects, and be shown the how and why. Opening their eyes a little, getting them to independently check various claims. I have encountered many people who were HBs because the claims made *sounded* correct, but have since been able to verify things for themselves and now know different. Finding out that HB claims are not accurate, not correct (Armstrong is a recluse who never gives interviews, the LM was never tested before Apollo 11, etc).
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kimmern123
Member Posts: 83
From: Norway
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted 01-04-2008 06:20 PM
I have a small problem. We're a bunch of people trying to convince a teenager at another forum that the moon landings in fact did happen! The story of how he became a hoax believer is actually quite horrifying, at least for me. His science teacher decided to use an entire lesson showing the FOX "documentary" about how the moon landings were faked. What I find terrible is that this was a high school class with 16-17 year olds where you in Norway need high qualifications to become a teacher (most of my teachers have Masters and PhDs and the likes). I've explained every single factor in the hoax theories and his last post left me a bit frustrated. He basically said (actually straightforward) that he elected to believe the hoax theory because he found conspiracy theories fascinating even though he admitted all the evidence gave the theory little credibility. He also said that the only thing that would convince him was if he could go to the moon and see the American flag on the surface himself. Is it just me, or are these people hopeless? Not to be rude to this fellow, but in the Norwegian school system we choose sort of programs for our education at age 16. Only a select few of those prepare you for college education. The others are aimed at preparing people to become carpenters and things like that. These are often the same people that hates normal school and in general aren't the brightest students (I'm not saying this guy is stupid, which I'm sure he's not, but this is how our system works and people are very happy with it). Do any of you know of some way to convince this guy or would it just be a waste of time trying to convince him? The thing that really makes me angry here is that a teacher at this high level teaches conspiracy theories without even trying to explain why they are wrong and don't bother with showing the scientific evidence that proves the theory wrong? I'm actually tempted to write to the Norwegian Educational Minister. Just had to get some steam out. Thank you for your help! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-04-2008 06:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kimmern123:
Is it just me, or are these people hopeless?
I wouldn't say every hoax believer is hopeless, though I think the person in question here is probably beyond hope at the moment. Anyone who admits that a theory is based on weak evidence with little credibility, but chooses to believe that theory regardless (because they want to) isn't going to be swayed by logical arguments. They believe what the want to believe and any attempts to change that belief may be fruitless.Perhaps when he gets older and more mature, he will realize how foolish he was... and let the evidence sway his opinion. I know I was easily swayed at that age by arguments about a conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination. Not only did some of the arguments make be believe in conspiracy, but I wanted to believe in a conspiracy. Fortunately I matured a bit (but hopefully not too much) and did more research on the topic... and later revised my opinion on the case to concur that Oswald did indeed act alone (based on overwhelming evidence that points to that conclusion). |
kimmern123
Member Posts: 83
From: Norway
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted 01-04-2008 06:41 PM
What do you think about writing to the government about what teachers nowadays are teaching in schools? What is quite embarassing is that in his New Year's speech the prime minister said the quality in Norwegian schools and especially the competence of teachers is what the politicians will have as their top priority this year, and then it starts with something like this coming out. |
Gordon Reade
Member Posts: 334
From: USA
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 01-04-2008 08:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kimmern123:
We're a bunch of people trying to convince a teenager at another forum that the moon landings in fact did happen!
As you may recall, Lick Observatory was used to to bounce laser light off of the reflector array that was set up by the Apollo 11 astronauts. Today any well equipped observatory can do this.I often volunteer my time at Lick and I have been told by the professionals that, so far, no one has ever accessed them of fraud. Tell your friend that if he thinks the moon landing was fake he can have the "honor" of being the first to point his finger at the guys at Lick. He'll be famous! Abraham Lincoln once said, "People are just about as happy as they decide to be." I say that people are just about as stupid as they decide to be. |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-05-2008 02:13 AM
Some of these sites may be helpful: Also worth bring to their attention is this paper on conspiracy theories and critical thinking. |
medaris
Member Posts: 181
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 03-07-2008 12:44 PM
I mentioned the moon landings in passing to a work colleague, and was astonished to discover he didn't believe they had happened. I lent him Andrew Chaikin's book, "A Man on the Moon." He altered his view a little, but came back with a few other issues. I responded to the queries with appropriate information, and he changed his views. I agree you can't persuade all of the people all of the time, but it is worth a try. |
Mercury7
Member Posts: 360
From: Greenville, SC, USA
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 04-18-2008 10:58 PM
I have met lots of people who do not believe... but it is out of ignorance more than anything else.I recently saw the movie "In the Shadow of the Moon." I enjoyed it but found the ending credits sad with the astronauts defending that they actually went. It is too bad the JAXA mission isn't high enough resolution to put an end to this stuff. I am hopeful that the Google XPRIZE participants are successful. I think at least one group wants to land a rover at the Apollo 11 site. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 04-19-2008 05:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mercury7:
It is to bad the JAXA mission isn't high enough resolution to put an end to this stuff.
Even if it was high enough in resolution, that still wouldn't satisfy many people...who would simply claim the new images are being faked too. While it may sway those on the fence over the subject, some people will never be convinced unless they stand at Tranquility Base and see for themselves. Sometimes, I think people prefer to remain ignorant of the truth. |
Brian Maguire
Member Posts: 20
From: Durham,UK
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted 04-21-2008 03:45 PM
Show any non-believers film footage of the lunar rovers (or astronauts) spraying and kicking up the lunar dust all over the place, the way it radiates towards the horizon and arcs without hanging in "the air", clearly demonstrates (to me anyway!) that it was either filmed somewhere without an atmosphere i.e. THE MOON! ...or we managed to build a film set inside a gigantic Vacuum chamber the likes of which would not be possible even nearly 40 years later. But having said this, some people would not be able to understand the point of that argument anyway.One of the reasons I find the moon landings so fascinating is because so many people still disbelieve or have doubts. It reminds me of the time a British comedian called "Ali G" had an interview with Buzz Aldrin... "So Buzz... tell me... is the Moon real?!" |
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