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Topic: What if Shepard had remained grounded?
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ChuckBdb8
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posted 09-03-2007 01:29 AM
   
Who would've commanded Apollo 13 if the surgery on Shepard hadn't corrected his Meniere's Disease? Gordo Cooper was the backup commander on Apollo 10, and expected to be rotated to command 13. But the NASA management wasn't very high on Gordo, from what I've read. Could Lovell have moved up out of rotation and become commander, possibly? Might that have even opened the door to Anders commanding 14?
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R.Glueck
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From: Winterport, Maine, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 09-03-2007 04:37 PM
Very difficult to assess accurately, but I suspect Gordo would have gotten it. Cooper maintained that Shepard bumped him from the flight rotation intentionally, to get the Apollo shot. That is easily contested, based on testimony from both Deke and Shepard, however one should not take too lightly that Shepard could be vicious around subordinate astronauts. I'm betting he would have undercut any of the Original 7 to further his chances to go into orbit. He might have had a difficult time knocking Lovell and Conrad out, but I'll bet he would have pressed his effort. Come to think of it, I'll bet the only two he wouldn't have gone up against would have been Grissom and Slayton, although I'm not too sure about Slayton! |
KenDavis
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From: W.Sussex United Kingdom
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-03-2007 04:56 PM
Having just re-read ‘Deke’ it is fairly clear Slayton felt no obligation to follow the back-up/prime rotation once the moon landing had been achieved. Rightly or wrongly his opinion of Cooper would suggest that a number of astronauts would have been offered the command of Apollo 13 ahead of Cooper even if Shepard has not returned.Favourites were McDivitt and Borman followed by Anders and Stafford but I believe all were moving on to other things. On that basis, IMO, Lovell would have been named to CDR of Apollo 13 with Roosa & Mitchell. Young would have got 14 with Mattingly and Haise, and Cernan would have got 16 with Swigert and Duke. For me the real consequence of Shepard not returning to flight status would have been Richard Gordon would have made it to the moon as CDR Apollo 17 Just my view... |
Michael Cassutt
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From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 09-03-2007 05:07 PM
It would likely have been between McDivitt, Stafford and Young for 13, if Shepard had not returned to flight status.Cooper -- no. Lovell? The only reason he moved from 14 to 13 was because of the hold George Mueller put on Shepard's assignment. Michael Cassutt |
Tom
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From: New York
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posted 09-03-2007 05:13 PM
I tend to lean towards McDivitt getting the CDR slot on Apollo 13, if Shepard remained grounded.I remember reading that Slayton offered McDivitt an LMP assignment with Shepard on Apollo 13. He refused, adding that if he did, he wanted to fly as CDR. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 09-03-2007 10:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
I remember reading that Slayton offered McDivitt an LMP assignment with Shepard on Apollo 13. He refused, adding that if he did, he wanted to fly as CDR.
"Offered" is too strong a word. The possibility was floated in perhaps a single conversation between Deke and McDivitt, and summarily rejected. At the time -- March 1969 -- McDivitt had a lot of interesting options: command a downstream Apollo flight, take over Shepard's job as chief astronaut, or go into higher NASA management. The idea that he, with all his experience, would be flying as LMP under Shepard (no matter how much "seniority" Shepard had) was not really a serious one.Michael Cassutt |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 09-04-2007 06:50 AM
Michael you say Cooper - no, what about if he had put in a first class job as back up on Apollo 10? |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 09-04-2007 01:46 PM
Without Shepard, McDivitt was CMDR on 13 (with Roosa and Mitchell, and Lovell, Mattingly and Haise on 14), no doubt. |
mjanovec
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From: Midwest, USA
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posted 09-04-2007 03:39 PM
While I know it would have NEVER happened (or never been accepted), ideally I think Shepard should have been offered the LMP position under Cooper's A13 command. Now THAT would have made for an interesting mission.  Cooper earned that command, regardless of what certain NASA management thought of him. I think of that as one of the greater injustices of the Apollo program. Granted, the end result might have been Tom Hanks playing Gordo Cooper in a movie and Jim Lovell actually finding Cone Crater. Not a bad trade-off, if you ask me. |
R.Glueck
Member Posts: 115
From: Winterport, Maine, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 09-04-2007 07:15 PM
In that case, would Slayton have had the guts to tell Shepard he was not going to fly to the moon for some reason, like being out of rotation? Would Slayton have cut off Schirra as readily as he did Cooper? Was it, in fact, Slayton who knocked Cooper out of the running? Had Glenn not gone into the whirl of politics, would Slayton and Shepard have canned Glenn? The Mercury boys were tight, but I hesitate to say they would have stood up for each other in their earlier "brotherhood pact" if it meant getting their own dibs in the pecking order. It doesn't appear that they ever stood up for Carpenter while he was being crucified. Shepard may have been a great pilot, but his only pedigree came from being the first. |
FFrench
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From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-04-2007 09:43 PM
A couple of points - both of which are in our new book:McDivitt once stated, many years after these events, he'd have been interested in commanding the first lunar landing, but not too interested in commanding a later one. In fact, he's joked that he should have messed up the Apollo 9 mission, meaning a landing would have come much later than 11, by which time he'd be head of the line again... Schirra did indeed get 'cut off' by Slayton in much the same way as Cooper was. Perhaps even more directly. Told he would only be a backup, and he would never fly Apollo. The Apollo 1 fire changed a lot. To my knowledge, our book interviews are the only time Schirra went on the record and said that. |
Lou Chinal
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From: Staten Island, NY
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posted 09-05-2007 12:50 AM
Francis, very interesting! Maybe this would account for Schirra being so 'testy' on Apollo 7.-Lou |
FFrench
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From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-05-2007 01:04 AM
Oh, we get into that too in the book, from the point of view of Schirra, Cunningham, and many others. |
capoetc
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From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 09-05-2007 09:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
... McDivitt once stated, many years after these events, he'd have been interested in commanding the first lunar landing, but not too interested in commanding a later one. ...
Quite similar to what Borman has said, but many people have chimed in to say they did not believe him when he says so. I, for one, happen to believe both of them. By that point in their careers, the work and sacrifice required to prepare for a lunar mission just wasn't worth the reward unless the reward was to command the first mission. At this point, we'll never know for sure what they really thought at the time in 1968-69-70 ... but, I think the best we can do is take their word for it. ------------------
John Capobianco
Camden DE |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
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posted 09-06-2007 12:35 AM
Well both Borman and McDivitt had have over 35 years to ponder their decisions not to go for a moon landing slot, I wonder if they still think they made the right decision?For the sake of a couple of years hard work, they could have achieved the umltimate in exploring experiences, they would still have had many years afterwards to lead quiet family lives. |
mjanovec
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From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-06-2007 09:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
For the sake of a couple of years hard work, they could have achieved the umltimate in exploring experiences, they would still have had many years afterwards to lead quiet family lives.
Borman has said that Apollo was never about exploration (in his mind) but was more about beating the Russians. He felt that the main goal was achieved when Apollo 11 was complete and said he didn't have much interest in playing the role of a lunar geologist. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 09-06-2007 02:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
For the sake of a couple of years hard work, they could have achieved the umltimate in exploring experiences, they would still have had many years afterwards to lead quiet family lives.
I can't decide whether this astonishing opinion is simply ignorant or just malicious -- possibly both. But you don't actually have the right to express it. You didn't live through the seven or eight years of relentless travel, separation from family or stress these men went through. Michael Cassutt |
mark plas
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From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 09-06-2007 02:42 PM
If McDivitt had stayed in the flight rotation would Scott have been on his crew and schweickart?Mark |
ChuckBdb8
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posted 09-06-2007 02:42 PM
I don't know about McDivitt's situation, but Andrew Chaikin's book extensively documents the problems Susan Borman had to deal with as the result of being the wife of an astronaut. I certainly can't speak for Frank Borman, but I would guess that he was perfectly happy with the choice he made given that allowed him to help his wife cope with her difficulties.I don't think that the Apollo astronauts saw themselves as explorers, for the most part (at least not the "Original Seven" or the "Next Nine," who commanded 9 of the 11 Apollo missions). I think they saw themselves as men committed to achieving President Kennedy's goal of reaching the Moon by 1970. Once that goal was achieved, most of them could move on and return to some form of normalcy in their lives. |
KSCartist
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From: Titusville, FL USA
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posted 09-06-2007 06:10 PM
I asked a shuttle astronaut once why he had left the corps when he did and he replied that it was just a personal decision and made when he felt it was right.
I imagine for every Apollo astronaut it was the same thing. I applaud Frank Borman for doing what he did for the sake of his wife and family. His own book paints a pretty accurate picture of the events as they happened. I also appreciate McDivitt's willingness to stay in a management role to provide leadership and support to the program.Mike I'm sure robsouth didn't mean anything hurtful by his comment. I think he was just wondering if any of them wished they had made a different choice. Mark- Schweikart moved into the Apollo Applications Program (Skylab) soon after Apollo 9 and Scott was in line for his own command so I don't think they would have served with McDivitt again. Tim |
R.Glueck
Member Posts: 115
From: Winterport, Maine, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 09-06-2007 07:37 PM
Mike, to what degree do you think personalities played in clearing some astronauts out of the way for favored individuals? Rusty got space sick, but so did Borman; Wally seemed to always be a bridesmaid and never a bride; White was first space walker and on the proposed first Apollo crew, yet we hear he was not in line for a command slot. As much as Deke was revered by many of the Next Nine and th Original 7, I can't help but think he had a side that was slightly underhanded. Other evidence is the passing comment that Elliot See flew "old womanish". Is there sufficient evidence or notes to indicate that Shepard and Slayton conferred on who to offer better slots than others? |
Michael Cassutt
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From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 09-06-2007 08:00 PM
Come on, Richard -- how do you run anything larger than a folk duo or a family without involving personalities?Are you seriously suggesting that Borman (test pilot, professor, Gemini commander, lead astro for CM re-design) and Schweickart (a smart civilian with a master's, but limited flying and engineering experience, compared to Borman) were in any way professional equals? Borman got sick and never flew again. (Remember that Slayton's offer of a moon landing came before Apollo 8.) Schweickart got sick and was assigned to Skylab, where he got a backup crew. What was your question again? As for White, it's been discussed. As for See -- blame me for the publication of Slayton's opinion, never expressed during his lifetime. Yes, there were astronauts he favored... usually with good reason. Is this somehow a surprise to anyone? From your perspective outside the astronaut office at a generation's remove, you call Slayton "underhanded" -- why don't you ask the guys who worked for him? And why don't we just can this whole line of tedious, ill-informed, repetitive inquiry. Michael Cassutt |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 09-07-2007 11:20 AM
Michael,in your personal opinion "Who would've commanded Apollo 13 if the surgery on Shepard hadn't corrected his Meniere's Disease"? |
robsouth
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From: West Midlands, UK
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posted 09-10-2007 05:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
I can't decide whether this astonishing opinion is simply ignorant or just malicious -- possibly both. But you don't actually have the right to express it. You didn't live through the seven or eight years of relentless travel, separation from family or stress these men went through.
Barbara Morgan waited over 20 years for her trip into space, makes those Apollo guys that turned down a flight to the moon look like right wimps ;-) quote:
Originally posted by KSCartist:
Mike I'm sure robsouth didn't mean anything hurtful by his comment. I think he was just wondering if any of them wished they had made a different choice.
Spot on Tim :-) quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
And why don't we just can this whole line of tedious, ill-informed, repetitive inquiry.
Phew! I think someone needs a few early nights...... |
R.Glueck
Member Posts: 115
From: Winterport, Maine, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 09-10-2007 08:14 PM
Mike and I have had several long, positive interchanges regarding Deke, his great books, and other matters. I must say I should have used better phrasing when I put my assertion forward. I sincerely believe Deke Slayton contributed far more to Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo than another man in similar circumstances. Perhaps being the last person to have complete access to Deke's opinions and thoughts makes Mike sort of a custodian to the legacy, and I can understand Mike Cassutt's need to see Deke's memory unsullied. For whatever reasons the astronauts were assigned as they were, it worked, and worked well. My personal opinion is that some good men, who had flown, remained under-utilized, despite their having done nothing to warrant not flying them a second time. Perhaps if Apollos 18, 19, and 20, had flown, things might have been different. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 09-21-2007 02:44 PM
Thank you, and yes, we have had some pleasant exchanges. But please know that while I find myself often defending Deke's point of view, I have no problems with legitimate questions about decisions he made. Deke wasn't a god, after all. I can easily cite several places where I think his judgment was wrong.That said, what is irksome to me (and by the way, I get lots of sleep and am generally considered quite sunny in my disposition) is the repetition of the same questions -- and especially arguments about the answers -- from the same sources, none of them in possession of sufficient information to give weight to their opinion. More bluntly, it's not the did-Cooper-get-screwed? question, it's the argument... Well, here's the answer: no, Cooper didn't get screwed. His superiors and most of his contemporaries judged that Cooper was not as capable of commanding a successful lunar landing as at least half a dozen other astronauts. (Why not? His approach to training was simply insufficient -- unwilling to put in the hours needed not only to thoroughly learn systems and procedures himself, but most importantly, to give mission control and other teams the confidence that he was ready.) If Slayton erred -- see above --it was in assigning the guy as A10 backup commander in the first place. Michael Cassutt |
Dirk
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From: Belgium
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posted 10-13-2007 05:07 PM
How it comes that Alan Shepard did not participated in the Gemini program, and had to wait till Apollo 14?Dirk |
ColinBurgess
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From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 10-13-2007 08:24 PM
Hi Dirk,Shepard was actually slated early on to fly the very first Gemini mission, along with Tom Stafford, but he developed a severe case of Meniere's Disease which badly affected his balance and he was grounded for several years. It was only after undergoing some innovative and delicate surgery on his ear canal that the problem was rectified and he went back onto flight status, at which time he began campaigning for an Apollo lunar-landing mission. Colin |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1332
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 10-14-2007 08:41 AM
Dirk-What Colin said is the way I heard it also. Shepard - Gemini 3
Group 2 - Gemini 4
Grissom - Gemini 5
Schirra - Gemini 6 When Shepard was grounded he moved Grissom to Gemini 3, and put Cooper in for Gemini 5. Deke had no plans for Cooper after MA-9. Should Deke have given Gordo his walking papers in 1964? I liked Deke and I liked Gordo. That's as much as I'm going to say. -Lou |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 10-27-2007 07:36 PM
I read somewhere that McDivitt told Deke he'd consider commanding Apollo 13, but wanted Rusty Scweikhart as his LMP (instead of Ed Mitchell, who was the one in line as Gordo's LMP). That was most likely before Rusty's bout with SAD. Also, at one point, Slayton had planned to assign Schweikart as Dave Scott's LMP, until the Apollo 9 sickness deal.Apparently, Cooper's public comment about his being barred by NASA from driving in the Daytona 500, a few weeks before Apollo 10 ("What do they want us to do, play Tiddlywinks?") was the straw that broke the camel's back with Deke. I don't think ultimately that McDivitt would have taken the job; he had his sights set on moving up to management by then. Either Tom Stafford would have gotten the call, or John Young would have moved from the backup slot, in my opinion, with Gene Cernan replacing him on the backup crew. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 10-29-2007 01:19 AM
IMO the only reason Cooper didn't get Apollo 13 was the return of Shepard. It's my understanding that McDivitt was offered the role of LMP once Shepard had been given the nod for Apollo 13/14 but didn't want to either, fly with Shepard or be a LMP, you decide. Schweickart, as far as I know wasn't going to the moon because of what happened on Apollo 9 so it's always puzzled me why he was moved to Skylab. Others may say that Cooper wouldn't have gotten Apollo 13 because of his attitude on Apollo 10 but consider Stafford's attitude during training for ASTP. |
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