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  Metric or English for Design?

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Author Topic:   Metric or English for Design?
garymilgrom
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Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
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posted 04-04-2007 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anyone know if the original engineering for these early programs was done using English or Metric units of measurement? I'm surprised when reading old books like NASA's Moonport to see Metric units. It also seems that they are not converted from English - there are not many fractional numbers like 135.17 meters. Perhaps NASA saw the Metric system coming and thought the US would convert and tried to get ahead of the game? Thanks

Gary Milgrom

kr4mula
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posted 04-04-2007 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Everything I can recall having seen was done in English units, not metric. Most of the original documents I've looked at were from MSC, specifically Crew Systems, so it's possible other areas or centers (notably the MSFC under the Germans) may have preferred SI. An actual NASA vet on here, like Sy, might be able to provide some first-hand data.

What you see in books like Moonport was the result of the early 1970s push in the U.S. to convert to the metric system. As usual, the government felt it was its job to lead the way and, if I recall correctly, mandated at least the inclusion of both units in its documents, if not a full conversion to metric. You can even catch the occasional NASA tech report from that period with diclaimers related to use of metric/english. We all know how the US conversion to metric worked out.

Hope this helps,

Kevin

spaced out
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posted 04-04-2007 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Am I dreaming or do the US military use the term "klicks" for kilometers? Presumably that means that they do at least some measures in metric.

SpaceCat
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posted 04-04-2007 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceCat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What I recall from Skylab prototype work at the Cape, c1970, '71- all design and construction was done in English units because that's what all contractors were tooled for.

The 'screen captures' in the appendix of Sy's book leaves little doubt that telemetry data was also English- PSIA and degrees F, e.g.

But I also remember that most everything was converted to metric in the follow-ups for any mission, i.e. in tech reports and formal scientific papers. This was all meticulously done 'by hand' until computer programs came along that could do it automatically.

Joe Holloway
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posted 04-06-2007 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joe Holloway   Click Here to Email Joe Holloway     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We in the U.S. ground forces do, indeed, use "clicks" as slang for kilometers. Our tactical maps are, generally, laid out in metric grid squares.

Further, regarding the use of the Metric System during earlier NASA programs, it really came into prominence during the days of Skylab and ASTP. Examination of some NASA publications of that day, such as the "Mission Reports"-series, show a definite transition over to the Metric world.

This was coincident with the Federal government's push to use Metric measurement during the mid-1970s.

Happy Easter to one and all!

aeroman
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posted 04-23-2007 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aeroman   Click Here to Email aeroman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Re: English vs metric.
There is actually no 'English' system, it is more accurately known as the 'Imperial' system developed for our, er, now defunct Empire! I also suspect many of our Scottish, Welsh and Irish colleagues would dispute the English nomenclature

garymilgrom
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From: Atlanta, GA
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posted 04-23-2007 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
aeroman: Thank you. At least we know there are no Whitworth-spec fasteners on the moon!

Regards,

Gary Milgrom

Lou Chinal
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posted 06-17-2007 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou Chinal   Click Here to Email Lou Chinal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gary-
Everthing in the M-G-A era was English. With the start of the shuttle Nasa was going to go Metric(ha-ha-ha). That's how I rember it anyway.
-Lou

tfrielin
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From: Athens, GA
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posted 06-18-2007 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tfrielin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:

What you see in books like Moonport was the result of the early 1970s push in the U.S. to convert to the metric system. As usual, the government felt it was its job to lead the way and, if I recall correctly, mandated at least the inclusion of both units in its documents, if not a full conversion to metric.

Kevin



You are correct--all those NASA Histories dating from the '70s onward all use metric units because it was a government mandate. An ill-conceived one, I might add. It is very annoying to have to mentally convert kilometers or kilograms or newtons to English measurements while reading Stages to Saturn, for example.

I don't have the Mercury NASA History in front of me here (This New Ocean) but I'm wondering if it has metric units or if it was published before the 1970s GPO mandated metric push.

If God had intended for us to use metric measurements, He would have had ten apostles, not twelve.

------------------
tfrielin

Edited by collectSPACE Admin

kr4mula
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posted 06-18-2007 11:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"This New Ocean" uses English units.

The switch is definitely annoying for us writing across programs and having to deal with the conversion mid-way through our subjects. It's even worse for measurements with multiple units (e.g. pressure, with psi, mmHg, Atm, etc.).

Cheers,

Kevin

Lou Chinal
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posted 06-18-2007 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou Chinal   Click Here to Email Lou Chinal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"If God had intended for us to use metric measurements, He would have had ten Apostles,not twelve"
--I love it-- I'll use it-- Great line--
-Lou

Dwight
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posted 06-18-2007 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dwight   Click Here to Email Dwight     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why on earth anyone would want to use a measurement system that correlates distance, volume and temperature in one easy to use format is beyond me.

Almost as ridiculous as using a TV system that has 100 more lines of vertical resolution, and which employs phase correction to ensure the colours stay the same.

;o)

mzieg
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From: Seneca, PA USA
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posted 06-19-2007 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mzieg   Click Here to Email mzieg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe I read in one of the many books & manuals I've read that the Apollo guidance computers actually ran their computations in metric units, then converted the outputs for display to Imperial units at the insistence of the astronauts. They could relate to those antiquated units like miles and feet per second better than the more scientific metric units. When I studied engineering in the early 70's, you might do the occasional physics or chemistry problem in metric units, but the hard-core engineering classes and virtually all the text books were done in Imperial in this country. The science types tended to work in metric while the engineers (& astronauts) were the Imperial guys.

kr4mula
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From: Cinci, OH
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posted 06-20-2007 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't say that I blame the astronauts on that one. Can you imagine having worked and flown with feet/pounds/etc. your whole life, and then having to mentally convert units in your head under pressure? I could see Armstrong guiding the LM down for landing, "altitude 122 meters, down 5 m/sec..." Regardless of the utility of metric units, if you've learned one system and come to understand instintively the relationship between you and the world in those terms, it's not easy to alter that.

Cheers,

Kevin

Aztecdoug
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posted 06-20-2007 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aztecdoug   Click Here to Email Aztecdoug     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am curious about the source, or base unit, used for the metric system. Is there one?

For instance, I recall being told as a child that a foot was the length of some King's foot in ancient history, and a yard was the distance from the above King's nose to the thumb of his outstretched arm.

Later on when I studied navigation I learned that a nautical mile is based on a minute of arc along a meridian of the Earth.

While all of these source units are subjective based on the size of the King or even the size of the planet you happen to be standing on, at least there is some reasoning behind it.

I was just curious if there was something similar used for the root of the metric system?

------------------
Kind Regards

Douglas Henry

Enjoy yourself and have fun.... it is only a hobby!
http://home.earthlink.net/~aztecdoug/

Aztecdoug
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From: Huntington Beach
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posted 06-20-2007 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aztecdoug   Click Here to Email Aztecdoug     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aztecdoug:
I am curious about the source, or base unit, used for the metric system. Is there one?

Wow... I answered my own question here. Wikipedia is great... I found that the meter, or the base unit of the metric system may have evolved over time.

1790 May 8 — The French National Assembly decides that the length of the new metre would be equal to the length of a pendulum with a half-period of one second.

1791 March 30 — The French National assembly accepts the proposal by the French Academy of Sciences that the new definition for the metre be equal to one ten-millionth of the length of the Earth's meridian along a quadrant through Paris, that is the distance from the equator to the north pole.

1799 December 10 — The French National Assembly specifies the platinum metre bar, constructed on 23 June 1799 and deposited in the National Archives, as the final standard.

1983 October 21 — The seventeenth General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM) defines the length as equal to the distance travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second.

Funny, based on the March 1791 change, it appears that the meter may in some respects be a cousin to the nautical mile. 1n.m. = 1852 meters.

I think we will have to convert to some atomic based unit of measure when we make peace with other aliens from outer space. Otherwise our joint venture probes may crash into planets in other galaxies.

------------------
Kind Regards

Douglas Henry

Enjoy yourself and have fun.... it is only a hobby!
http://home.earthlink.net/~aztecdoug/

kr4mula
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From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 06-21-2007 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think they are converting everything to some atomic-based standard. I just read that the official platinum alloy kilogram bar has been corroding and some Austrians (I think) are fabricating near-perfect silicon spheres as a replacement. Eventually, the number of atoms in the spheres will be the new standard for kilograms. Of course, switching to odd things like distance travelled in a fraction of a second, number of atoms, vibrations of an atom, etc., essentially re-introduces the sort of arbitrariness that the metric system was meant to replace. But I suppose these new standards are repeatable and consistent, if not as strange on paper as the king's foot.

Cheers,

Kevin

Edited by kr4mula

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