|
Author
|
Topic: Apollo 11's fallen flag
|
Dirk
Member Posts: 943
From: Belgium
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted 03-16-2007 12:19 PM
   
Buzz Aldrin said just now on the news that the US flag left on the Moon by Apollo 11 fell down as the lunar module left the moon. Any confirmation? |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 2913
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
|
posted 03-16-2007 01:16 PM
It was placed too close to the LM and knocked over by the exhaust of the LM ascent stage. I'd like to see the next crew land nearby and pick it up and re-install it. |
mark plas
Member Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000
|
posted 03-16-2007 02:14 PM
It's not like other crews learned from it because if you look at the Apollo 14 lunar liftoff the flag sure took a blow. |
tegwilym
Member Posts: 2331
From: Sturgeon Bay, WI
Registered: Jan 2000
|
posted 03-16-2007 02:19 PM
That's news? I thought that has been known for over 30 years? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 03-16-2007 02:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KSCartist:
I'd like to see the next crew land nearby and pick it up and re-install it.
There may be nothing to pick up. From Tranquility Base Today: Without a doubt the flag is quite faded by now, and at the very least is stark white. However, it was made from nylon, which is quite susceptible to ultraviolet damage from the sun, whose light is unfiltered on the moon. That means it has probably suffered from an extreme case of sun rot. It may have completely decayed by now, and might exist as a delicate pile of "ash" on the surface. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 03-16-2007 02:39 PM
It may have completely decayed by now, and might exist as a delicate pile of "ash" on the surface. ...wow that's news! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 03-16-2007 02:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KSCartist:
It was placed too close to the LM and knocked over by the exhaust of the LM ascent stage.
I also recall one of the Apollo 11 crew talking about how they weren't able to pound the staff into the lunar soil very far. For the rest of the EVA, they tried to avoid going near the flag, so they wouldn't accidentally knock it over! |
Dirk
Member Posts: 943
From: Belgium
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted 03-16-2007 05:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by tegwilym:
That's news? I thought that has been known for over 30 years?
Rare that Aldrin brought this item as great news during his speech in Delft. It looked as he told a top secret item. Maybe he thinks Europe is still living in the middle ages (sorry to say this as my daughter opened his cola on his demand last year in Brussels). |
Dirk
Member Posts: 943
From: Belgium
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted 03-17-2007 06:41 AM
I must correct my question: Buzz didn't say in Delft that the flag was blown over upon lift-off, but already laid down before they took off. But he and Neil told the flag was blown over upon lift-off. For those who are interested in the article (in Dutch) I can send a scan. |
Steve Procter
Member Posts: 1031
From: Leeds, Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Oct 2000
|
posted 03-17-2007 09:31 AM
Are we sure the flag stayed in it's fallen position? I don't know why but the film of the liftoff always gave me the impression that the blast knocked the flag over whilst still fixed in the ground and that it was springing back upright as it was lost from vision (the thing happened very quickly remember). |
Philip
Member Posts: 6002
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
|
posted 03-17-2007 09:54 AM
The film of the blast off certainly showed the flag moving away due to the exhaust...On the other hand don't expect a future crew to land nearby the Apollo sites.  |
spacecraft films
Member Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002
|
posted 03-17-2007 05:17 PM
There is no film of the Apollo 11 flag going down... Buzz started the camera shortly after liftoff.The film you are describing is from Apollo 14. Documentary producers use it all the time for the Apollo 11 liftoff. IT IS NOT. It is from Apollo 14. Again, there is NO film of the liftoff on Apollo 11. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
|
posted 03-17-2007 08:45 PM
It always seemed to me that the Apollo 14 flag was firmly enough planted in the ground to stay upright. It certainly whipped around in the temporary "gale" but it looked like it was going to recover. Unfortunately, someone will have to go back to Fra Mauro to clarify this. |
astronaut23
Member Posts: 12
From:
Registered: Mar 2007
|
posted 03-18-2007 02:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
On the other hand don't expect a future crew to land nearby the Apollo sites.
If NASA goes back and avoids the old Apollo sites the moon hoax people will still say that we didn't go back during the Apollo days. Even if we once again prove that it can be done by going back. |
spacecraft films
Member Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002
|
posted 03-18-2007 07:33 AM
Going back to the old Apollo sites will do nothing for the moon hoaxers. Even if you took them there. They'd just say it was either placed there later or it was all a trick.Nothing will ever change their minds, because they aren't interested in facts or the truth. As Dickens said in "The Christmas Carol..." "This boy is ignorance, this girl is want... fear them both... but most of all, beware this boy..." (paraphrased from memory, but you get the idea)... |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2983
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 03-18-2007 03:18 PM
To my understanding, only Armstrong was looking out Eagle's left-hand window when the lunar ship fired away from the moon's surface. At the time Eagle blasted free of its launch platform, Aldrin was busy monitoring lunar module instrumentation, and wasn't able to see anything outside. But Armstrong reported seeing lots of torn-free insulation naterial by the LM's ascent engine blast along with a shower of debris.As recorded earlier, "Armstrong, watching the surface, saw the first American flag deployed on the moon yield to the whoosh of dust and debris and fall slowly over on its side." |
Dirk
Member Posts: 943
From: Belgium
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted 03-18-2007 04:00 PM
I just sent a scan of the article to Leo Bakker who was present in Delft when Aldrin said this. I will translate as he said: The flag laid down even before lift off. Because this was a sensitive matter in the U.S., Neil, Mike and I decided to tell nothing about this. Aldrin also said in Delft that you can not see the Chinese wall from the moon, and that you nearly can see the different continents on the earth from the moon. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 03-18-2007 04:34 PM
From Apollo Expeditions to the Moon, edited by Edgar M. Cortright, NASA SP-350, 1975, quoting Aldrin: Liftoff from the Moon, after a stay totaling twenty-one hours, was exactly on schedule and fairly uneventful. The ascent stage of the LM separated, sending out a shower of brilliant insulation particles which had been ripped off from the thrust of the ascent engine. There was no time to sight see. I was concentrating on the computers, and Neil was studying the attitude indicator, but I looked up long enough to see the flag fall over... Three hours and ten minutes later we were connected once again with the Columbia. (emphasis mine) Thus, knowledge of the flag falling over is at least as old as 1975. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2983
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 03-18-2007 05:01 PM
Part of my prior "report" came from Hansen's "First Man" as quoted from Neil that he saw the flag fall over (and not Aldrin), and also another source that seemed to confirm this. |
mforceone
Member Posts: 15
From: Netherlands
Registered: Mar 2006
|
posted 03-19-2007 08:49 AM
Dirk, I'm sorry to correct you, but don't rely on newspapers for accurate quotes, nor on listeners who do not correctly represent what was said. I was there on Tuesday and Aldrin clearly said it was knocked over by the liftoff blast.He showed the footage taken of that event while describing it. |
spacecraft films
Member Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002
|
posted 03-19-2007 01:24 PM
There is NO footage of that event. I have seen the entire magazine. It does not exist.It is possible that he showed the Apollo 14 footage. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
|
posted 03-19-2007 03:04 PM
This image is from Apollo 14. A frame from the 16mm footage, camera in Mitchell's window, according to the ALSJ. |
Dirk
Member Posts: 943
From: Belgium
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted 03-19-2007 03:36 PM
I won't start a discussion about this, but I contacted the TV station (Belgian commercial station VTM) as well as the newspaper where the article was published.No news from the newspaper, but the TV station mailed they knew the history of the fallen flag caused of the LEM lift off, but they brought the news because Aldrin said the flag laid down before lift off. In fact no big deal, fact is that the Apollo 11 flag don't stand up anymore. But I found it interesting to hear what cS thought about this. |
spacecraft films
Member Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002
|
posted 03-19-2007 04:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
This image is from Apollo 14.
That is, indeed, a frame from Apollo 14's film, and is used often as the Apollo 11 liftoff. One might consider it the most colorful (due to the flag) of the lunar liftoff footage. |
mark plas
Member Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000
|
posted 03-19-2007 05:53 PM
When did the television transmission stop before or after the crew left the surface? |
spacecraft films
Member Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002
|
posted 03-19-2007 06:28 PM
After, as it showed the jettison of equipment. Because of the configuration, however, it was impossible to have TV coverage of the liftoff.And the 16mm was started after the liftoff. By Buzz. |
mforceone
Member Posts: 15
From: Netherlands
Registered: Mar 2006
|
posted 03-20-2007 07:00 AM
I stand corrected on the footage. That does look like what was shown at the presentation. |
BA002
Member Posts: 177
From: Utrecht,NL
Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 03-20-2007 04:27 PM
I was there too and as I recall it the fragment we now have identified as being from Apollo 14 was in Buzz's own video! I say: as I recall it, because while waiting for Buzz they showed part of a documentary someone had taped from TV, and then when Buzz was waiting to be presented they showed Buzz's own introductory video, so I could be confused in which it was, but I think it was Buzz's own video. Any confirmation from someone else? |
mark plas
Member Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000
|
posted 03-20-2007 05:25 PM
You are right Leo, I was there too and Buzz only showed pictures. The clip of the Apollo 14 liftoff was in the documentary before he was onstage. |
mforceone
Member Posts: 15
From: Netherlands
Registered: Mar 2006
|
posted 03-23-2007 03:29 AM
Well, I went over my video footage of his talk and I just happened to have captured his statement entirely on video! His exact words were: Now there's six flags on the moon...Absolutely no doubt that Apollo 11's flag is the best looking flag. (laughter) But we lifted off... Neil..., looking outside... Could see that the flag... (pauses and makes a fall-over gesture with his right hand). ...fell over". (laughter) But we knew... (partially unintelligible) ...people are so we didn't tell them that (partially unintelligible) way. (laughter) It seemed he said "We knew how sensitive the people are so we didn't tell them that right away".There were indeed no video scenes shown, only pictures. The video sequence was shown in either the generic pre-presentation or Aldrin's own pre-presentation. |
advertisement