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Author
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Topic: 225934030605: Buran or NASA shuttle tile?
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From Swamp To Space
Member Posts: 16
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2020
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posted 01-05-2024 12:59 AM
   
I've been trying to pick up a (NASA) shuttle tile for years now for some STEM outreach demos, and recently stumbled across something that puzzled me. In a recent eBay auction (225934030605), a thermal tile was described as being an "Early space shuttle HRSI thermal protection tile" that was "mounted and used on the test flight before the first space shuttle flight." My gut told me this was actually a Buran tile and not from NASA, but when I inquired with the seller they claimed that, "I had it looked at by a man who worked at NASA who made this tile and he told me what it was its the test flight before the shuttle." This still didn't convince me, so I decided not to bid, but I was wondering if anyone more familiar with HRSI/TPS tiles could chime in and give their opinion on whether it's a NASA orbiter tile or a Buran tile?  
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kyra
Member Posts: 603
From: Louisville CO US
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-05-2024 01:40 AM
NASA's orbiter tiles have ID numbers like V070-29798-212-29983 and other numeric identifiers. I think there were a few that didn't that were used for demonstrations, test fits and so forth, but they were not flown. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 5312
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-05-2024 04:35 AM
Majority of tiles allocated to US shuttle developmental/test work were assigned "VT" prefix drawing numbers. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4553
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 01-05-2024 01:41 PM
NASA didn't make the tiles. From memory it was Lockheed Missiles and Space Division, Sunnyvale, California. |
Rocket Chris
Member Posts: 441
From: Guttentag
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 01-06-2024 06:45 AM
Buran tiles do have an engraved number on the back, near an edge. Its hard to see but these numbers are the location numbers which is comparable to the VO70* shuttle IDs.This is definitely no US Shuttle Tile, check if there is a number and let me know! Might be from Buran, or Pitchka or just an spare tile from the program. Check if the tile shows some "rainbow" colorations, this is an indication for heat/plasma contact. From remote I would say this one is from the Buran program. If there is a number, beginning with "5" it can be from the main fuselage. US Space Shuttle Tiles do mostly have an yellow or white VO70-xxxx-xxx-xxx ID, check the forum, I think there was already a discussion on the several ID appearances. Test tiles are marked with "ENG", "MICS" or "VT". There have also been blank tiles without any marking used for gap filler trainings, but those would have some red RTV silicone on the back and no engraved marking There are also fit check tiles with ordinary VO70-ID, but commonly they do have another colour... |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 1121
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 01-07-2024 09:15 AM
This tile was found is a storage locker on the space coast and was found with a large quantity of Apollo and very early shuttle memorabilia from a Rockwell Employee.There is no reason to believe this tile was flown but I can attest it is definately shuttle related and not Russian. I hope this helps. |
From Swamp To Space
Member Posts: 16
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2020
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posted 01-07-2024 03:16 PM
Well darn, I guess this would've worked for my purposes then. Part of my reasoning was what Chris mentioned about the numbers. The Buran tiles on eBay often have the little handwritten numbers on the back along the edge like this one did. I don't know how to add photos, but this listing has a close-up of the numbers. I'd never seen this on a NASA tile. Anytime I'd seen numbers on the back of a NASA tile, they appeared stamped or at least machine-made, not handwritten and they were also towards the center rather than being along the edge. I even thought the damage on the back seemed more inline with that shown on the Buran tiles (ex. 166254061342) than the flown NASA ones I looked at, partly because of the brownish coloration rather than the red from the RTV. |
Rocket Chris
Member Posts: 441
From: Guttentag
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 01-08-2024 12:03 AM
I have to disagree with Chuck. It's definitely not a shuttle tile, nor one from a "pre-shuttle era."US tiles always have a smoother back surface and a wider edge, on which, as already mentioned, stamps or markings are applied. Tiles from the Soviet era and therefore also from the Buran range are rather rough at the back and have a thinner "frame." Also as mentioned, the dirty gray residue is a good indication of a tile from the Buran program. quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
I can attest it is definitely shuttle related and not Russian.
But if Chuck can "attest" that this tile is a US tile... well.. then I'm more than excited about the documentation or the proof he stated. And even if it was found with a large quantity of Apollo and very early shuttle memorabilia from a Rockwell Employee, that doesn't automatically mean it's a US tile.Even tile patterns, fit check or foam-like test tiles do have stamps, markings or some designation on it to identify. So please "attest" its shuttle program origin. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 1121
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 01-08-2024 06:58 AM
I only give this information as the entire collection was bought to the museum for appraisal late last year. As a collection there were no Russian items of any kind so I (assume) the tile is American. This person worked for Rockwell with many early Space Shuttle items and the reason the back of the tile is in such rough condition is it was at one time mounted to some structure and then removed resulting in noticeable material loss for the back side. As I have seen a large number of tiles over the years several with no printed numbers on the black side this has the hallmarks of an early tile with no printed numbers but I "assume" the numbers where originally on the back side and decimated during the tile removal process As with all appraisals it is only my opinion but again there was no evidence of any Russian involvement in the hundreds of items recovered from the storage locker. |
Rocket Chris
Member Posts: 441
From: Guttentag
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 01-08-2024 07:47 AM
Sorry but this is no attest, its just your assumption.I do own several tiles, from all (former) Space Shuttles existing (including "tracer patterns," engineering tiles as well as fit check ones) as well as from the Buran, Bajkal as well as Pichtka. With a direct comparison, the photo shows a Russian tile. Now I have detected the hand-lettered engraving on the picture on the bottom. You can barely see it. quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
...the reason the back of the tile is in such rough condition is it was at one time mounted to some structure and then removed resulting in noticeable material loss for the back side.
All my Space Shuttle tiles have been affixed to a fuselage or body of the the Space Shuttle. None of them have this rough back-surface after removal from the fuselage. All do show the red RTV silicone and these surfaces are nearly smooth. Russian tiles have been glued to the spacecraft's body with a felt. Thus the requirement was different compared to US Shuttle tiles. I think it's a huge problem (for some) that it's a Russian hardware because it can't be what it actually is. And the evidence (judging from a distance) unfortunately speaks in favor of a Buran tile and clearly against a US tile. quote:
I "assume" the numbers where originally on the back side and decimated during the tile removal process
So what about the necessary stamps such as "DEN" or a stamp from a Quality Assurance/Inspector? Not existent!Okay... So what about remaining RTV silicone as you can see it on all (!) Removed Space Shuttle tiles (as this is sticky like hell)? Even being affixed for some testing? Not existent. What about a bulletproof documentation, images or something else supporting your "assumption"? Better to accept that it's not a US Shuttle tile instead of sticking to a guess. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51637
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-08-2024 03:11 PM
Please try to remain calm. Everyone here is only trying to help. The provenance (as put forth) does raise a question as to why a collection of early U.S. space shuttle program items would have a single Russian tile that could not have been obtained until much later, likely after the Buran program ended. That said, I will share that on first glance, I was reminded of this Reddit post about a Buran tile. That example was obtained through Alcona in 2011, which sold a good number of Buran tiles at that time. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 1121
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 01-08-2024 07:15 PM
First I want to say I do not mean to offend anyone in any way on these forums as with everyone here most of what is said is our best opinion. The comments I made are to the best of my knowledge and in no way have hard documents to back them up. I am the Collections Analyst and Chief Operating Officer with the American Space Museum a position I have held for many years. I deal with space memorabilia on a daily basis but I am in no way am I an expert. With that said it is my understanding the in early shuttle development there were many attachment methods tried including those that did not have the strain isolation pads (felt) backing and did not use RTV silicone as adhesive. The shuttle program was several years behind schedule due to the thermal protection tiles falling off during vibrations tests. I made the deadly error of assuming that this could be one of the tiles from this time period. As I said before this tile comes from a storage locker find and all evidence shows from a long time Rockwell engineer. I am trying to locate his information to post here. With all of that said I did not believe it made any sense to associate this tile as Russian considering the vast preponderance of early space shuttle program memorabilia found with it. Again it was an assumption. I do apologize for saying in my comment "There is no reason to believe this tile was flown but I can attest it is definitely shuttle related and not Russian." without having rock solid documentation. I will try not to make this mistake in the future. |
Rocket Chris
Member Posts: 441
From: Guttentag
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 01-08-2024 11:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Please try to remain calm.
If my words sounded harsh I apologize. Rob you are right. quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
I do apologize for saying in my comment...
Chuck, didn't want to attack you. At least this forum is exactly that what its meant to be for... to discuss, to endeavour, to discover and to help! Hope we finally brought some light into the mysterious dark.  |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 834
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 01-09-2024 03:14 AM
Are there only two options: Space Shuttle or Buran? Is it possible that this tile was used for another project? |
Rocket Chris
Member Posts: 441
From: Guttentag
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 01-09-2024 07:51 AM
Its indeed a heat shield tile from a shuttle vehicle. There were also the Sovjet BOR, MAKS and Spiral Program, but these were a part of the Buran Project. BOR-4 was fully assembled also with Buran tiles. There was also a Spiral Demonstrator (MK-10) in full-scale but from my knowledge without tiles. Beside, MAKS was also build in an 1:1 demonstrator, but here I do not know if it was tiled (and if so, for sure with tiles from Buran).I do not know other programs which used tiles in this shape, size and appearance. Or you probably know some black project? |
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