posted 09-14-2020 04:37 AM               

I check here and there for flown artifacts and am always amazed at what some people ask for the things they offer.

There are horrendous prices that are completely way off. Just because something was for e.g. once declared as Space Shuttle hardware where there is no evidence at all that it has been flown or if it even belongs to the program. Or other spare parts where people think they got the treasure and try to sell these dubious things just to see the money rolling.

I observe especially on eBay but also here at cS that some people are just looking for a profit and that the circle of collectors is becoming more and more to an illustrious group of bigwigs. There are just a few collectors who sell some of their items for a realistic price and they are not just out for the money.

There are enough examples on eBay where I recently found an ASTP lucite from the ASF offered for 1000US $?!?!. I mean, come on, that's no longer in any relation. Above all, a this seller who probably offers his collection as an "investment" on eBay has an asking price where I can't get out of the wonder.

I know that there are rare items which have history and that a collector who wants to pay for the item, pays the item, but in my opinion the collection of space stuff became more and more to a greedy trading "industry." Also those guys form the "space dealers" series show how people gonna push that market just for profit.

posted 09-14-2020 09:58 AM               

On eBay, I have very modest sellers who have favorable prices as well. If, as a European, I buy something from another collector, then I still have to reckon with one obstacle that will make the purchased goods more expensive by leaps and bounds. This is a customs duty as well. Nevertheless, I like to look at least a little bit, if my financial situation allows it as well.

It must be admitted that there are many attractions and rarities and you can't have everything. Everyone cheers and collects something different in the industry. That diversity is also interesting.

If I can add something else as well, then it's a bit of a vague look at collectors from the former Eastern Europe as well. There were and still are many witnesses and collectors here before the regime changed from communist to democracy. Many of them were not allowed to receive everything from them abroad, and so NASA was sent as well. Many correspondence checked and censored as well. Sometimes an empty envelope came, despite the amount of material it contained. But that is a thing of the past.

posted 09-14-2020 11:39 AM               

It's a free society. If you think something is too expensive, then don't buy it. If the dealer is in it as a business, then they have to sell their item or go out of business. The successful dealers know what price to buy at, and what price to sell at.

Another item for coin buyers to be aware of on eBay is counterfeits. With regards to the space memorabilia field, that is comparable to sellers claiming that their item was "flown" etc. It is incumbent on the buyer to make a determination whether the sellers claim is believable or not. Unfortunately many buyers don't do their homework and get screwed. This problem has been around for so long that there's even a Latin phrase from the Roman Empire era... Caveat Emptor... Buyer Beware!

posted 09-14-2020 03:02 PM               

In 2009, John Young started selling his collection at Heritage Auctions. That year, an Apollo 16 heatshield plug in lucite sold for about $1,300. This summer, his widow listed another, which sold for $13,000. That's a somewhat extreme example, but browsing the auctions shows that prices have more than tripled on average in the past decade.

My dream is to collect heatshield lucites from Geminis 8 and 10, and Apollos 8, 11, and 16. If I knew about this hobby in 2009, I could have afforded them. But now, I doubt it'll ever happen. There are definitely sellers out there asking deeply unfair prices. But in general, I think the hobby is just becoming exponentially more expensive. The Armstrong Family Collection was widely promoted and publicized back in 2018, and I think that's the moment when things finally started getting unattainable.

posted 09-14-2020 08:49 PM               

"Hbw60" is correct, the prices go up over time. In 1997, you could buy an Apollo 11 black star chart from Buzz Aldrin at Superior Galleries for $2000 USD. In 2009, an Apollo 11 star chart sold for $218,000USD at Bonhams in New York.

In 1999, Christie's held a space auction that was heavily advertised, and the prices skyrocketed. That was a para-dynamic change in the space hobby as newly wealthy dot.com owners flocked to the market. The next major change was the passage of the Astronaut Bill because it conferred ownership of flown material to the Apollo era astronauts. Now people did not have to worry about their collections being replevined. That is where we stand now.

As for eBay, that is truly a buyer beware operation. While one may with excellent knowledge pick up a diamond in the rough, it is for the most part full of fakes and overpriced objects. As SkyMan1958 stated, it is the "Wild West." So, one must do their research before diving into that arena.

It is tough as a collector these days. The prices have increased exponentially over the last twenty years. While there have been ups and downs in the market due to cycles in the economy, the prices recover and then increase beyond the prior highs. It is a matter of timing the market.

But do not give up hope. Have patience because these items come back on the market with surprising regularity. What you miss now will be back in a few years.

Finally, those jerks on Space Dealers really did not know what they were doing (I ought to know since I was one of the show's actors), but they were just following what other space dealers and "vest pocket" dealers have been doing for years. Buy low, sell high. Remember TV does not innovate, it imitates.

posted 09-15-2020 12:49 AM               

Without a doubt, artifacts become more precious and expensive over time, but as you said the maximum profit is disproportionately in the foreground for many.

I'm also interested in the fact that many people demand a huge amount for it just because something comes from the space program without even knowing what exactly they have offered. When I see some offers and their prices with the note "not sure if flown" but then charge a horrendous sum, I really ask myself what do these people actually believe? But like you said, you have to wish luck for selling and just let go.

posted 09-15-2020 01:31 AM               

My issue has always been the fair asking price of any item and I have many so-called rare or hard to find items. So I have opted in most cases to sell at auction with no reserve. I figure the market will always find its own "fair price."

I do not collect for the money and years ago I used to pass my items on for very near my purchase price but it breaks me heart when I sell an item to a collector or cS member only to see it relisted for several times my sale price in a very short period of time.

posted 09-15-2020 03:30 AM               

The Superior and Odyssey auctions of the 1990s featured unique flown items direct from some of the astronauts that sold for what today seem ludicrously small amounts. This was effectively before the internet so few people knew of them and only those who could attend in person were really competing against each other.

The Christies auction of 1999 shook things up because it reached a far wider audience, including wealthy generalist collectors, and made the astronauts realize there was a real market for some of the items they had stashed in boxes in the attic.

The Aurora auctions of the early-mid 2000s brought space collectibles to a worldwide on-line market, and Heritage and RR took on the same role in the late 2000s.

At each step of the way the prices being realized looked expensive compared to what had gone before, but in retrospect those prices now look like bargains. That's just the way it is when the market is still growing.

posted 09-15-2020 08:11 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Rocket Chris:
I find it very honorable and brave that you, as a dealer, former performer on the TV show, bring out the negative aspect for yourself and the market.

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I have been collecting space memorabilia since 1959. I have watched the hobby go from free autographs to paying $500 or more for one autograph. As Chris (Spaced out) said, we have watched the prices of artifacts rise because of the increased attraction to the hobby.

As I stated before, eBay is not a true indicator of pricing. It is a large community flea market for the masses. Amateurs, who found something at a garage sale, will look at Google find the price of an exceptional space object and use that as their pricing model on a minor piece. All one can do is laugh at it and move on.

It is interesting to see these topics of increasing prices and dealer vs collector come up again after 20 years. These same discussions took place in the late 90s and early 2000s on this board and they will probably be topics in the 2030s. It the nature of collecting in general.