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Author
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Topic: Apollo 12 moon-flown flag authenticity
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Chuckster01
Member Posts: 1062
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 07-21-2019 01:16 PM
   
I would like your opinion on this Apollo 12 flag. I can only find one unsigned flag sold by Heritage in 2010. Wondering if it is authentic? |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3185
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 07-22-2019 01:18 AM
This is one of the known styles of flown flag presentations used by NASA for Apollo 12. They were rarely signed. |
Tallpaul
Member Posts: 211
From: Rocky Point, NY, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-22-2019 06:59 AM
I understand the need for provenance but at the same time I am saddened that in the interest of proving authenticity a flag needs to be desecrated by writing on it. Apparently this Apollo 12 presentation is a rare example of a flown flag that has not been desecrated with writing. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 1062
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 07-22-2019 04:01 PM
In this case, I was not referring to the flag being signed. I was referring to the matting being signed. This presentation is in its original frame and is sealed with backing that is obviously very very old. I think we are good. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4463
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 07-23-2019 03:44 AM
An inscription somewhere on the piece would certainly have helped with any ambiguity. "Carried to the Moon" or "Flown to the Moon" usually suggests lunar orbit: "Ocean of Storms" has me thinking.... did it land or is that simply a reference to the mission's objective? |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3442
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-23-2019 05:08 AM
Some of the early Apollo missions, especially 12 it would seem, did have various format presentations for flown flags. This is one that I have seen before, however, overall they're not that common in this version and I do believe the American flag referred to here did fly (mostly likely aboard the CSM). |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 2040
From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 07-23-2019 06:58 AM
This is indeed a standard flown flag presentation used by Apollo 12. I think it's great - simple and direct. Here are some other examples (also unsigned) from Goldberg, and Fraser.There are several past examples signed by the crew, but I wanted to show that it was also standard for them to be unsigned. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 1062
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 07-23-2019 01:56 PM
That is very interesting both of the auction examples you listed clearly state flown to the lunar surface. One was presented to Chris Kraft, I had assumed it was lunar orbit. As this was consigned to our Apollo Only sale I may have to amend our auction listing. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 48430
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-23-2019 02:37 PM
The Goldberg example was specifically corrected to state it did not fly to the lunar surface. There is a typed inscription on the reverse that reads: "This flag was carried to the lunar surface on Apollo 12 by Pete Conrad, Dick Gordon and Al Bean. Presented to Chris Kraft from the Flight Control Division, March 1970". This has been corrected in pencil to read: "carried to the moon in / November 19, 1969 / Ocean of Storms / By (no From) the Flight Control Division." Though not always consistent, NASA's style at the time of the Apollo missions was to describe items flown in lunar orbit by the name of the landing site (e.g. "flown to the Ocean of Storms") or simply "to the moon." If the item landed on the moon, then it was described as having been "flown to the lunar surface." |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1777
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-23-2019 08:32 PM
I purchased a similar presentation from Dick Gordon in 2014. Dick said it was flown to lunar orbit on Yankee Clipper; however there is an inscription on the matting that reads "Sailed with Yankee Clipper and Intrepid to the Ocean of Storms November 1969." So which is it; lunar orbit, on the moon, or we just can't be certain? |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3442
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-23-2019 09:17 PM
In sailing to the moon with Yankee Clipper and Intrepid to the Ocean of Storms doesn't necessarily mean to the lunar surface! Such a flag in reference to did in fact fly to the moon, as both Apollo spacecrafts, the CSM and LM, were joined together for most of the voyage to lunar orbit as a single combined space vehicle. The final or ultimate flight plan was a "trip to the Ocean of Storms," perhaps somewhat of a play on words, when referring to the flag's location during the lunar trip. Now on the other hand, if there was an inscription that a flown flag
"went/flown to the lunar surface," that would be much better, but should be annotated/documented by the crew itself or from an individual crewman, and in other cases, from another good/credible source. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1777
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-24-2019 01:18 AM
I agree Ken. Dick said it was flown in lunar orbit and that is what his COA says. Either way I am a happy camper to own a flag that flew on Apollo 12 and obtained directly from the astronaut! Plus the matting is signed by all three crewmen. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3442
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-24-2019 05:10 AM
Great! That's what really counts, based on the flag's known background, that you're happy with it, and so am I for you. |
TRS
Member Posts: 732
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 07-24-2019 11:33 PM
Sounds like we may have similar Apollo 12 presentations. Mine has the COA which also uses the "sailed to the Ocean of Storms" wording but it is stated as being landed. No full crew signatures though - only Dick's. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1777
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 04-26-2021 06:23 PM
There is a flown Apollo 12 flag on the market with a COA from Dick Gordon that clearly states it flew to the lunar surface. It's glued to a large display with an unflown patch, and with a label that reads "Sailed with Yankee Clipper and Intrepid to the Ocean of Storms; November 1969." The display is signed by Dick. The flag/presentation I purchased from Dick in 2014 is identical to this presentation, including the size of the display and size of the flag. The only difference is that my presentation has been signed by all 3 crewmen.Is it possible that some of these large flags were flown to the lunar surface and some just to lunar orbit? Seems reasonable to me. But why would they have made identical presentations of both types of flags, and not distinguish which ones flew to the surface and which ones stayed aboard Yankee Clipper? Is it possible that my flag did go to the lunar surface, but by 2014 Dick simply could not remember if it went to the surface or just lunar orbit? I think (key word here) that my flag may have flown to the lunar surface, but I don't see any way of proving that. I would love to see the list of items carried in the PPKs to see if large flags remained in lunar orbit, or if they all went to the surface. As I stated earlier, I'm over the top that my flag flew to lunar orbit and it came directly from Dick. And I'm not about to sell it, so I'm not trying to increase the value of the flag. But I do wonder... |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1373
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 04-26-2021 08:44 PM
I talked extensively with both Dick and Al about their medium (8x10) and large (12x18) flag displays. They stated that the flag displays were worded separately to say "Sailed with Yankee Clipper to the Moon November 1969" for lunar orbit or "Sailed with Yankee Clipper and Intrepid to the Ocean of Storms November 1969" for lunar surface. That conversation occurred because I bought a lunar surface large flag display from Dick. I had is inscribed and signed by both Dick and Al. I have a photo of Dick and Al holding the flag display at the 2006 Sims and Hankow Show in San Antonio, TX. You can see the flag here. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3185
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 04-27-2021 03:30 AM
Larry, so in the case of Mel's (MCroft04) flag would you say the presentation wording (which implies it was flown to the lunar surface) overrides Gordon's LOA (which states that it was flown to lunar orbit)? |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4463
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 04-27-2021 04:38 AM
Personally, since the flag at the top of this thread makes no mention of Intrepid, and there is some ambiguity over its precise nature we should err on the side of caution and presume it is orbit only. What do you think Larry? |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1373
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 04-27-2021 11:39 AM
Chris, well that is a very good question. I know what they both told me at San Antonio when I bought my flag from Dick. Here is a photo of Dick and Al holding the flag at that show.  They also said that they (the Apollo 12 crew) exchanged large flags so each crewmember had a similar lunar orbit and lunar surface large flags. That is all I can tell you. |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1373
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 04-27-2021 11:47 AM
And Rick, always err on the side of caution. They took 395 small US flags for the Flight Operations Directorate in the command module that were given to Gerry Griffin for disbursement to NASA. I would say that Chuck's flag is from that batch and would be flown to lunar orbit. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1777
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 04-27-2021 03:34 PM
Larry, thanks for that information and the link to the article. Given that info I do "believe" that my flag flew to the lunar surface. Long story, but I didn't see a picture of the display with the flag before it arrived at my home. After seeing the inscription "flown to the Ocean of Storms" I wondered if it did make it to the surface. Linda told me it flew "via Yankee Clipper" implying it flew to lunar orbit. Dick wrote a COA on the back of the display saying it flew to lunar orbit (because that is what I asked him to write) - if it did make it to the surface he obviously had forgotten.Can I prove it flew to the surface? Nope. If I were looking at purchasing my flag again, and was told that it flew to the surface because Larry was told by Dick and Alan that flags with that inscription did, I would still be hesitant to pay the price for a flag flown to the surface (even though I completely trust Larry and what Al and Dick told him). Regardless, I own a great artifact! |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1373
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 04-27-2021 06:50 PM
While on my Daddy's knee he once told me that when it comes to money don't trust anyone, not ever your old man. And he gave me several lessons on just that. When my wife's old grandmother heard that she was going to marry me, she rose out of her hospital bed and said, "Don't trust him he is Irish, you can't trust the Irish." She was Polish, God bless her. So don't trust what I say. Do the research! |
Cagedfalcon
Member Posts: 84
From:
Registered: Jul 2019
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posted 05-22-2021 02:17 AM
I have the same flag as the OP. It came directly from assistant flight controller Bill Platt and I see no reason to doubt its authenticity. |
David Carey
Member Posts: 941
From:
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 05-27-2022 05:20 PM
Has anyone ever seen a Charles Conrad signed large US flag (~12x17”), certified directly on the flag itself as “carried in the lunar module, to the moon on Apollo XII”? |
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