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Author Topic:   Appraisal for Apollo 14 signed photo
Space girl
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From: Ferndale, WA
Registered: Feb 2017

posted 02-11-2017 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space girl   Click Here to Email Space girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an 8 by 10 photo of Apollo 14 with the three astronauts in their white suits. Alan Shepard wrote "To Sharon, best wishes from Apollo 14 crew" then he signed it and also dated it 3-5-71. When he passed it over to Mitchell to sign, he left a partial thumbprint in my name. Mitchell and Roosa is signature only.

I am hoping that someone could give me a high and low value.

capoetc
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From: McKinney TX (USA)
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posted 02-11-2017 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to collectSPACE.

I would not consider myself an "expert", but I would say the value would be in the $250-400 range. It would help to see a picture of the item.

The value would be probably $850-1500 or more if not for the smudge and the inscription. It might be desirable to someone named Sharon, but otherwise it would probably be an entry-level or space filler item for many collections.

Hopefully someone else will chime in and correct my assessment as needed.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with it.

spaced out
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From: Paris, France
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posted 02-12-2017 06:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You need to post a picture really. Some or all of the signatures could be secretarial or it could be a mix of real signatures and autopens.

Mike Dixon
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From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
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posted 02-12-2017 06:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Dixon   Click Here to Email Mike Dixon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chris has got that right. I half guess it's probably okay with all three, but without a scan, no real idea.

Space girl
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posted 02-13-2017 02:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space girl   Click Here to Email Space girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are some photos:

Space girl
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posted 02-13-2017 02:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space girl   Click Here to Email Space girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Mike Dixon
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From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
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posted 02-13-2017 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Dixon   Click Here to Email Mike Dixon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well from me, I don't see a problem with it.

Others might, They are definitely not autopens I've ever seen... any of them.

Ken Havekotte
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From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
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posted 02-13-2017 04:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, I am not happy with the signatures on it. In my opinion, from what I can see of it, the Shepard and Mitchell (and with Roosa I cannot see his signature too clearly) are not authentic along with the inscription as well.

For "Space girl," what do you know about the origin or provenance of the signed Apollo 14 crew litho?

Space girl
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From: Ferndale, WA
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posted 02-13-2017 05:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space girl   Click Here to Email Space girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These signatures are as real as they get. My father was an acquaintance of Gene Marinette, who was an astronaut affairs officer for NASA at the time.

My father told me the day before that we were going to have breakfast with the astronauts in the morning so that meant we got to miss school and have space sticks and Tang. It just doesn't get any better than that for a 10 year old kid oh by the way they don't eat space sticks and Tang.

Steve Zarelli
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From: Upstate New York, USA
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posted 02-13-2017 07:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In all due respect, none of these signature are authentic. Not even close. It's possible they handed out proxy signed photos. There was a person in the PAO who did a decent job of knocking off the signatures. It would not be the first time someone came home with a signed photo for their kid that was not authentic.

You came here asking for an appraisal. It would be dishonest to pretend these are authentic. Sorry.

spaced out
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From: Paris, France
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posted 02-13-2017 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an Apollo 14 "crew-signed" photo from the collection of someone who worked with the astronauts at NASA that was supposedly personalized by Shepard. The handwriting is identical to this example (and not Shepard's) so I believe these pieces were signed on Shepard's behalf by someone in his office.
quote:
Originally posted by Space girl:
My father was an acquaintance of Gene Marinette, who was an astronaut affairs officer for NASA at the time.
The fact that your father knew and met the astronauts does not affect the authenticity of these signatures.

The astronauts regularly had things signed with Autopen machines and in cases like this by a secretary or other office worker.

Even fellow astronauts often ended up with photos signed by autopen or secretaries without realizing it at the time.

Space girl
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posted 02-13-2017 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space girl   Click Here to Email Space girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see where I went wrong in my first post. I should have posted photos right away and gave more background information. I never thought the authenticity would be questioned. I guess I was naive, but this is a good thing for both parties, seller and buyer. I would just be sick if I let it go for way under the value.

The background on my autographed photo is this: at the time we lived in Wooddale outside of Chicago. We drove in early in the morning to Chicago. My dad, my mother and my little brother we went to the Palmer House and sat in the restaurant there where Mr. Marianetti sat down at the table. They had coffee, talked for awhile and then Mr. Marianetti waved the three astronauts over. I did not see where they came from but three chairs were pulled up for them and they sat down at the table.

Mr. Marianetti took out two photos from his briefcase, handed them to Alan Shepard, who signed and passed them round to the two other astronauts to sign. Alan Shepard then slid the pictures across the table to my brother and I and asked us something. I cannot remember for the life of me what it was he had asked us, and then they left it was all very quick.

And thanks to the doubters I realized that once I was dead there would be no first-hand account. I hope I've got it right now, after four posts as you can tell I'm new to this, sorry.

(Sorry about the above being so long but I should add that my father is still alive, my brother is still alive, my mother has Alzheimer's and Mr. Marinelli is also alive, sharp as a tack. I spoke with him in early February.)

Jonnyed
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From: Dumfries, VA, USA
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posted 02-13-2017 07:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jonnyed   Click Here to Email Jonnyed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not a recognized signature expert that you would bank on but the Edgar Mitchell signature — for one — looks way too neat and well-formed and "even" compared to the actual Mitchell signature I've seen before, like the Alan Bean Apollo 14 golf shot painting.

SpaceyInMN
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From: Andover, MN
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posted 02-13-2017 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceyInMN   Click Here to Email SpaceyInMN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I, likewise, am no expert. However, the Mitchell varies significantly from any that I've ever seen, including one that I obtained directly from his site a couple years before his passing. The "S" in Shepard and the "S" in Stuart appear, to my novice eye, to possibly be signed by the same person.

I think most, if not all autograph collectors have obtained forged, secretarial, or autopen signatures at some point. It can sting when one finds out. I have a Ted Williams signed baseball card that I thought was real for years. When I started to look at it and compare it with known exemplars, however, it became apparent that it was secretarial. Others confirmed my suspicion. It stinks, but, unfortunately, it goes with the territory of autograph collecting.

stsmithva
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posted 02-13-2017 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stsmithva   Click Here to Email stsmithva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For comparison's sake, here is a photo Alan Shepard signed "with best wishes." The handwriting is quite different.

capoetc
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posted 02-13-2017 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Having seen the pics of the item, I definitely agree with the assessments above.

My first thought when I saw the Shepard was "secretarial," but the handwriting does not seem to match the usual secretarials.

I am sorry to say, this item probably does not hold any value except for sentimental value for the original poster, who has had the item for a long time and has it attached to a fond memory.

I offer the following simply for the purpose of illustration, and not to suggest that this is what happened here: I recently flew with a guy (I'm an airline pilot) who told me one of his fondest memories was of watching the Apollo 11 moon landing on TV with his Dad. He said that he fondly remembers sitting on his Dad's lap during the event, and his Dad told him, "One day you will tell your grand kids that you saw this happen". The problem is, it never happened. Years later, when my pilot friend told his Dad about this wonderful memory, his Dad said, "That's a nice memory to have, son, but I was in Vietnam in the summer of 1969. We listened to the landing over there on Armed Forces Radio." Sometimes, memory can be a tentative thing, particularly for an event occurring decades in the past.

Best of luck in deciding what to do with your litho.

Incidentally, the folks who chimed in above are both knowledgeable and reliable. If this item were authentically signed, I feel strongly that you would have already received multiple offers from people watching this thread in the $250-300 range offering to take it off your hands.

Rick Mulheirn
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From: England
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posted 02-14-2017 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I rarely comment on autographs: I don't consider myself an expert but I would like to make two observations.
  1. The Mitchell signature is unlike any I have seen in over 45 years of collecting and that includes watching Edgar sign 450+ signatures at one session.

  2. If the photo was slid from one astronaut to another on the same table would it not be a reasonable assumption that the pen was slid with it? Looks like three different pens to me.

Space girl
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From: Ferndale, WA
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posted 02-14-2017 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space girl   Click Here to Email Space girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know when you post things on the internet you should have a tough skin but some of the comments made here why it isn't real are ridiculous to think that the astronauts shared one pen when they came to Chicago to sign autographs. And why hasn't anyone called Mr. Marianetti to confirm that my dad and him we're friends and that they worked at a radio station in Missoula Montana where they met several years before and that my memories for that day are likely true or untrue?

hinkler
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From: Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA
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posted 02-14-2017 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hinkler   Click Here to Email hinkler     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
People are trying to help you. You asked a question and you received a number of replies. If Ken Havekotte and Steve Zarelli say the signatures are not authentic then you can be assured that you have received an honest opinion from two experts. The folks on this forum are extremely helpful and have years of experience.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 02-14-2017 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Space girl:
I know when you post things on the internet you should have a tough skin...
Sharon, what others have said here is true; very experienced collectors like Ken and Steve are only trying to help by sharing their considerable knowledge.
quote:
Originally posted by Space girl:
I cannot remember for the life of me what it was he had asked us...
Given that you do not clearly recall all the events of that day, might it be possible that you are also misremembering the signing?
quote:
And why hasn't anyone called Mr. Marianetti to confirm...
It is isn't necessary to contact Marianetti to comment on the style of the autographs. But that being said, you mentioned having spoken to him recently. Did he recount the events as you described them? Did you talk to him specifically about the autographed litho?

SpaceyInMN
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From: Andover, MN
Registered: Dec 2013

posted 02-14-2017 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceyInMN   Click Here to Email SpaceyInMN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sharon, first off, I apologize if anything I said offended you. That certainly wasn't my intent, and having personally dealt with several people in this post in private transactions, I don't know them as the type of people that would intentionally offend anyone. Quite to the contrary, in fact. The folks on this post are very knowledgeable and experienced in space autographs.

Steve Zarelli's opinion is considered the gold standard by many, and for good reason. Ken Havekotte has more experience in this field than most of us combined. Several others on here have literally decades of collecting knowledge. While not strictly pertaining to space autographs, I have actively collected autographs for 32 years, and even though I'm not an expert, I've learned a thing or two about what to look for and who to trust. If Steve or Ken offer an opinion, I trust it.

I'm sorry the opinions expressed here aren't what you expected, but it would not be fair to you if anyone here gave you an appraisal for signatures that aren't the real deal.

neo1022
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From: Santa Monica, CA
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posted 02-14-2017 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo1022   Click Here to Email neo1022     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve and Ken are the gold standards for authentication. As I'm sure they would be the first to admit, many genuine signatures will not be deemed authentic simply because they are too anomalous to be considered "typical" (in the absence of other corroborating evidence, such as a photo of the signing).

What this means is that reputable authenticators will tend to err on the side of being too conservative — if something looks off, no matter how good the back story, they will generally refuse to authenticate the item. After all, there's nothing worse for an authenticator's reputation (or the collecting community they serve) than certifying a fake signature as good...

So, what does that mean for your initial question regarding value? Well, given that these guys are pretty much universally recognized as the go-to guys for space authentication, it means no one would want to invest in such an item (especially not when so many really good examples are available). You may know they're good, but no one else who would want to buy it has your memory as proof. All they have are some atypical signatures that won't pass authentication. There's a reason certificates from Steve and Ken are considered iron-clad by both knowledgeable collectors as well as many major auction houses.

I know this was disappointing news for you, and I can empathize. It's especially hard to hear when it's tied to an heirloom piece. I'm just trying to give you the perspective of a space collector, and help put it in perspective...

oly
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posted 02-14-2017 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For what my opinion on this is worth, you have asked for opinions and advice to appraise the value of your photo and you now have an idea of its value to the market. If this market value is lower that the personal value to you for its memory and history to you, then now understand that it is worth more to keep it than it is to sell it for your own personal circumstance.

I think its a great photo and an amazing story of meeting three heroes that I will never have the chance to meet and for that I am envious. Thanks for letting me see your photo and sharing you story.

Space girl
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From: Ferndale, WA
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posted 02-14-2017 11:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space girl   Click Here to Email Space girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been extremely hesitant to post anything from my conversation with Mr Marianetti that he could be disrespected even in the smallest way on this forum. He should have the upmost respect from everyone. He truly is an incredible person and when he passes we will really have lost a lot and I feel I had an incredible opportunity speaking with a piece of living history.

The length of our conversation was more than I could have ever hoped for; we spoke briefly about my autograph and then about many other things. He asked me to tell him what I had remembered, I did and his reply was it is very highly likely that that was what happened. It would have not been unusual, especially in those days, and Alan Shepard was that kind of a person. I do not fully understand exactly what he meant about the last part. I have my interpretation but I wouldn't post it here because it is my interpretation.

spaced out
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posted 02-15-2017 04:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't believe anything written above is any way disrespectful of Mr. Marianetti. No one has made any statement concerning him.

Regarding your conversation above...

quote:
He asked me to tell him what I had remembered, I did and his reply was it is very highly likely that that was what happened.
In other words, he does not remember the event, which is not surprising as it was over 45 years ago.

The issue here is that the signatures on the photo are not consistent with those of the astronauts, and instead look like secretarial autographs of the kind that were apparently produced at NASA on behalf of Shepard at that time and given to friends and co-workers.

The handwriting on the Shepard inscription is also distinctly different from that of Shepard himself. There are many tells within it that are completely inconsistent with all the dozens of examples of his handwriting I've compared it with.

vamanboatin
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posted 02-15-2017 09:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vamanboatin   Click Here to Email vamanboatin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back to the original question. I think the value here are your memories of a special moment in your life and not so much the dollar value.

The first item I ever collected was a book called "We came in Peace" ($5). I received this from my mother shortly after the Apollo 11 landing. After decades of collecting this is still my most cherished piece.

Maybe you could frame and enjoy the photo. I do think it would be important to keep a copy of this forum discussion attached to the back to be sure the history and evaluation are known.

In the past I have shredded "suspect items" in my collection. I have one questionable piece I've kept that my father gave me that carries sentimental value. I have advised my family of its status and clearly marked the evaluation of the experts on the back in ball point pen.

I just thought I would throw this option out there since there seems to be a strong connection with this photo.

usafspace
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From: Los Angeles, CA USA
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posted 02-16-2017 04:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for usafspace   Click Here to Email usafspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sharon, my first impression when I looked at your Alan Shepard writing and signature was a female had done the writing. Also if you compare the 'd' in Shepard and the 'd' in Ed (Mitchell) they look to be written by the same hand. Possibly a secretarial.

If I were you, I would hold onto the piece. Look at the great story and memories you have.

garyd2831
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From: Syracuse, New York, USA
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posted 02-17-2017 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garyd2831   Click Here to Email garyd2831     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, I'm going to be the bad guy who points out the ugly part of this thread.

I think what the root of the problem here is that the original poster (Space Girl) wanted to know what the "high" and "low" value might be. I don't think she was looking for confirmation regarding the authenticity of the signatures, because in her eyes they are real. I'm assuming that she stumbled upon cS through a simple web search regarding astronaut autographs, signed up and posted the question.

As the true space collectors we are, we know that a value can only be established based on current, past market research and what someone is willing to pay will be based on the confidence of it being authentic. Unfortunately for the poster, fortunately for us, we have a community based tool set that has been doing this long enough and very capable of making a pretty sound opinion in regards to the true nature of an item (in this case the supposedly autographed Apollo 14 crew photo).

It seems to me that this might make it onto a market through a number of secondary sources, autograph collectors who specialize in selling everything and who have signed off on forgeries as "authentic" and provide one of those generic COAs we've all seen.

I think it best to just keep a keen eye open for what might come to market much like the article that Mike (Moonpans) posted regarding a gentleman who purchased what he believed was a legit Neil Armstrong signed moon picture.

SpaceyInMN
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Posts: 355
From: Andover, MN
Registered: Dec 2013

posted 02-17-2017 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceyInMN   Click Here to Email SpaceyInMN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gary, do you have a link to the article that Mike (Moonpans) posted about the supposed Armstrong signed moon picture? I don't recall reading it before and I can't find it with a search of cS, but it sounds like an interesting read.

mmmoo
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posted 02-17-2017 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mmmoo   Click Here to Email mmmoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The article I posted about the Armstrong buyer, wasn't on cS but on the Moonpans Facebook page.
It was one small tap of the gavel, but one giant leap for the new owner of a rare Neil Armstrong autograph.

Peter Algar, who lives near the Beaumont Park estate in Littlehampton, beat out international interest to buy the autograph at Campbells auction house in High Street, Worthing last week.

He paid £2,585 for the astronaut’s signature, which was the joint-highest price paid in the auction of more than 1,000 autographs and letters.

SpaceyInMN
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Posts: 355
From: Andover, MN
Registered: Dec 2013

posted 02-17-2017 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceyInMN   Click Here to Email SpaceyInMN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for posting that. I'm not good enough at identifying Armstrong forgeries to pick out what's wrong with that signature, especially viewing it on a small image in my phone. If it is, indeed, a forgery, I hope the auction house rectifies the situation.

garyd2831
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Posts: 640
From: Syracuse, New York, USA
Registered: Oct 2009

posted 02-17-2017 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for garyd2831   Click Here to Email garyd2831     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From what I could tell, it looked like one of the Peachstate style forgeries.

But again, I was stating that its possible that the Apollo 14 signed photo could end up on the market some place fool other much like the gentleman who recently purchased the Armstrong forgery.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

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posted 02-17-2017 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mmmoo:
...wasn't on cS
There is however, a separate topic about the same piece.

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