posted 06-17-2018 01:38 PM               

Proof would be a NASA document showing that flags were aboard Challenger. As stated earlier in this thread, by the time Apollo 17 flew, the memorabilia manifests (OFK and APK/PPK) were public record.

For earlier flights, NASA documentation does not exist, and so an astronaut's inscription is the only provenance. But on Apollo 17 and later flights, NASA documentation does exist and if an astronaut's inscription contradicts that documentation, there needs to be an explanation for the NASA documentation to be ignored.

posted 06-18-2018 06:54 AM               

Only the astronauts' APKs are known to have been carried in the LM on Apollo 17 and the APK lists do not mention any 4x6 US flags.

The astronauts were apparently given some flags from NASA's OFK for distribution after the mission and this is very likely the source of the flags gifted by Cernan and Evans after the flight.

No NASA OFK or flag kit is noted as having been stowed on the LM at launch or transferred to or from the LM after launch, thus all NASA flown flags are assumed to have been flown only to orbit.

posted 06-18-2018 06:53 PM               

But I will not give up as there is no obvious reason anyone would put "flown in both America and Challenger" unless it was flown in both.

Also there is no reason to put flags aboard Challenger and not take them to the lunar surface.

posted 06-18-2018 08:41 PM               

In reading the letter again, I can easily argue that the ships "America" and "Challenger" are being taken together as the spacecraft flying Apollo 17. Anything flying in the CM would be travelling to the moon on America and Challenger, and at the time the distinction between the two would not have been considered. No one at the time thought that one day 4x6 silk flags flown to the moon on Apollo 11 would be selling for upwards of $100K.

posted 02-02-2019 06:00 AM               

I tried to zoom in on the flag for a good look to compare to the one I have but the resolution is just too low. Not sure why as many other lots allow you to zoom right in.

I was also wondering if this listing is one of the package of flags that have been listed with copies of the Evans/Cernan COAs discussed earlier?

posted 02-02-2019 06:41 AM               

While I am well aware of the Cernan/Evans flown flag letter certification, in my mind, I have always questioned any flag that "accompanies" such a letter.

I do recall an instance, with an American flag and "supporting same-type letter" that had been professionally photocopied, therefore, not knowing if that particular flag could had been substituted as flown, but really wasn't! In that case, based only on my own separate opinion and nothing more, I didn't even think the US flag was of the same type design as the original one(s) were, that I have seen and know of from early on.

But that isn't the only issue of concerns I had with the possibility of multi-flags applying to the same flown-type batch. I am still not convinced that so many flags were handed over to a MSF rep. for distribution.

But of course, whatever flag(s) were intended by the Apollo 17 CDR and CMP provenance letter, were more likely flown and Cernan's inscription on this one does help. It's altogether another point, though in my view, to actually prove that any of the flags in the batch were on the lunar surface aboard LM-12!

In reference to a letter annotation that this flag flew on both spacecrafts to the moon doesn't at all prove that it was separated from the command ship and went to the surface. I've seen descriptions from astronauts beforehand referring to both spacecrafts as being "one" docked-together in space while flying to the moon.

Finally, I'll even go a step further and say that I was never completely convinced by the letter, or from any other source, that the letter referred to was applying to multi-flags being flown. How about just one?

As a general rule of thumb, in most all cases, I would never acquire a flown lunar flag if it did not contain an original hand-signed letter from a crewmember(s), or with an original signed certificate, or from an appropriate NASA official, space center, etc.

If such a letter wasn't possible to acquire, at least, it must be an iron-clad COA or another suitable certification that I would be satisfied with -- but certainly not with a copied letter, as in the case of the Cernan/Evans support letter.

posted 02-02-2019 12:57 PM               

The major issue with the flags addressed in this thread is that they (and MANY others I have seen show up in lots of other auctions) are accompanied by a photocopy of the same letter.

It is possible that, at the time of the mission, someone in receipt of one of the flown flags could have manufactured more of the photocopied letters, paired those letters with flags of the type flown on the mission, and given them away to friends, etc, as a neat memento ... such an action would have seemed pretty harmless at the time since no one anticipated the rise of the space memorabilia collecting hobby.

Similarly, anyone today could carefully manufacture flag/photocopy letter sets that look just like the ones shown in this thread -- it would be especially difficult to discern the difference particularly if someone could find a stack of flags made during the period (I am quite certain such flags exist, lying in wait to be paired with a credible looking COA to make them worth thousands of dollars instead of a couple dollars).

posted 02-02-2019 06:02 PM               

Lunar orbit or flown to the surface aside it does not appear the same as mine (shown at the beginning of this post) but it is hard to be sure without a decent resolution scan.