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Author
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Topic: Cutting apart shuttle TCS thermal blankets
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robertbl22
New Member Posts: 9
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Oct 2013
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posted 03-28-2016 12:11 PM
   
I contacted an eBay seller because I want to buy an Space Shuttle TCS thermal blanket but I'm distressed that he keeps cutting up the blankets to sell them. I'm curious if you guys think I was out of hand. I wrote: Can you PLEASE stop cutting up these artifacts? Isn't the space collector community interested in buying your blankets undamaged? There is only so many of these things and every one you cut up is destroyed. It kills me every time I see your products posted. The response: Simple answer to your question. No! Nobody is interested in buying original pieces. Frankly, I don't care much for your email. What I do with my collection is my business and actually brings more affordable parts to people, hence, they all sell.If you have a problem with space related material being damaged or wasted I suggest you aim your silly anger at NASA. Might I point out that it is NASA who disposed of almost everything in the bin. Keep your silly behaviour to yourself. Sending emails to sellers with an aggressive tone is also harassment. Anymore such emails like this and you will be reported to ebay. Do you honestly think I'll stop selling just because of one aggressive opinion? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-28-2016 12:19 PM
Nobody is interested in buying original pieces. This is not true. What the seller meant to write is nobody is interested in buying original pieces at the price he wants to sell them. Otherwise, he must think there is a market, at least at the price he is offering each segment. quote:
Originally posted by robertbl22:
I'm curious if you guys think I was out of hand.
I don't think your message was out of hand, but I personally would have taken a different approach. If you are interested in buying a complete blanket, I would have inquired with him about buying a complete blanket. Then it just comes down to a question of cost, which is negotiable.A sale of a complete blanket might serve as a better incentive to him to stop cutting apart blankets then being asked (or told) to stop. |
dom
Member Posts: 855
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 03-28-2016 12:22 PM
I'm on your side. Apart from him destroying something historical just to squeeze the most $$$ for himself, from the tone of the email you received he's definitely the one at fault! |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 03-28-2016 01:17 PM
Frankly, I think you were way out of line with that message. Those things are his and you don't have any authority to tell him anything about what he can do with it. If it's such a thing for you, offer to buy the whole item from him. In other words, put your money where your keyboard is.An example for me is I'm into pre-1945 typewriters. Many of them get butchered for their keys because they're simply worth more than a whole typewriter. Do I like that they're cut up? No. Do I have anything to say on that? No. The alternative is I could offer to buy them all for what the seller can get out them. Otherwise, I need to suck it up and move on to something I can control. What cracks me up on this forum is when people decry the cutting up of an item that was already cut from a larger whole (and commonly, a flown item melted into more metal for coins). I see it often here. Once the first parting out is made, then it's all just an issue of semantics. But if you don't want to buy the whole from someone, then you need to just move on and remember we still live in a free society for now. |
robertbl22
New Member Posts: 9
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Oct 2013
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posted 03-28-2016 01:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I would have inquired with him about buying a complete blanket. Then it just comes down to a question of cost, which is negotiable.
That would have been a better approach. I followed up by telling him that I was interested in a blanket and his message was a poor way to handle customer feedback. He wrote back saying I was lying and never intended to buy anything and he would cancel any of my purchases if I did. I'm wondering if collectors have been sending him messages about this and so it's a touchy subject? I guess we as collectors have to just be grateful for the artifacts that manage to survive the ravages of time and capitalism gone awry. It's sad to see it happening live though. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-28-2016 02:27 PM
In this specific case, TCS blankets are not so rare or unique to need to be losing sleep over some being cut apart. While it is not my preference, there are still three orbiters with their blankets intact, as well as other complete examples in museums and private collections.Sometimes you have to pick your battles. We are not going to be able to save everything intact, and so the focus should be on the preservation of as much as possible but with an emphasis on the one- and few-of-a-kind artifacts that aren't already in museums. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 03-28-2016 05:42 PM
It is my opinion that if each of the "space collectors" out there would buy for their own collections the space items that interest them personally and keep those items in as pristine condition as possible for future generations, there will always be a few intact examples of every type of collectible. In other words, preserve what you can. These items are like antique cars, there are not many left but a few are kept in showroom condition by dedicated collectors (my one exception would be space flown checklists sold by the page; a checklist could always be reassembled by a dedicated collector. Once cut up that checklist will never be complete again). |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 03-28-2016 09:03 PM
Okay, so what's a complete blanket worth, and where can someone buy an uncut one? |
Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 03-29-2016 02:07 AM
With Rob on that. His item, his right. He isn't governed by anyone's standards other than his own. Preservation versus profit come from two different corners. A meeting in the middle might have been possible but that's now out of the equation. |
robertbl22
New Member Posts: 9
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Oct 2013
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posted 03-29-2016 05:03 AM
Thanks for the bigger perspective guys. I don't really understand this, "It's mine, you can't tell me what to do!" mentality. But I can appreciate now that there are space collectors who think he was acting perfectly fine and reasonable. And I value your opinions. This has been a helpful discussion.My fear is that these dealers don't realize the extent of what they are doing, and are acting out of ignorance when they disassemble or cut artifacts. I felt it was important for me to speak up. But I guess I'm paying a price now for giving my opinion to someone who didn't want to hear it. As for contacting the dealer to buy a whole blanket — you're not supposed to make deals outside of eBay, and if you do, you'll lose the Buyer Protection. So this dealer would have to start listing whole blankets. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 03-29-2016 05:13 AM
Try contacting Ken Havekotte. He has an amazing collection and I feel is very reasonable on his pricing. He may have what you're looking for and it's hard to find a more reputable dealer. If you need his email he post regularly on collectSPACE or email me and I will provide it. |
robertbl22
New Member Posts: 9
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Oct 2013
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posted 03-29-2016 05:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
Okay, so what's a complete blanket worth, and where can someone buy an uncut one?
Let's see, at RRAuction a blanket without flight info went for $396 (I think that's an outlier). Another from STS-87 went for $220. Goldberg had STS-85 for $432 and another at $357. Along with other sales I've seen, my impression is a flight-associated blanket goes in the $300 to $400 range. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-29-2016 06:21 AM
Thanks for the plug here, Chuck, and my firm does provide flown shuttle thermal protection blankets, both fully intact versions and cut-pieces of various sections for just about all collector needs. Unfortunately, there is no website of mine available at this time, so please feel free to email. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-29-2016 07:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by robertbl22:
But I guess I'm paying a price now for giving my opinion to someone who didn't want to hear it.
I would suggest it isn't so much that you shared your opinion, but how you shared it. You can convey the same sentiment while being friendly. An example: You've obtained some nice pieces from the space shuttle. I would be interested in buying at least one blanket but I'm only in the market for intact examples. Have you considered offering them whole? Not only might you find other collectors such as myself interested in buying them, but you'd also be helping preserve the original artifact for future generations. If you'd like help with the pricing for such, I can point you to some recent auction results. That way, you appeal to the seller's business sense and introduce the idea of preservation. quote:
So this dealer would have to start listing whole blankets.
Indeed, I am not advocating circumventing eBay, but suggesting he start listing complete examples based on his having at least one interested customer. eBay has no problem so long as you suggest he list the item as a new auction or Buy-it-Now sale. |
robertbl22
New Member Posts: 9
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Oct 2013
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posted 03-29-2016 01:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
...so please feel free to email.
Hey, great to hear Ken. I only knew that you provided authentication services for some of the auctions and wasn't aware that you sold items too.Chuckster01 thanks! |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 03-29-2016 04:28 PM
Also there is one TCS complete and uncut in the Space Walk of Fame Charity auction. It has a bid of $70 right now. This might be an inexpensive way to get a complete flown and documented TCS blanket. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-29-2016 05:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robertbl22:
I felt it was important for me to speak up.
Thanks for speaking up... there are many of us in the collecting community who cringe anytime we encounter artifacts being dissected or separated for profit. |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 04-26-2016 12:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
Okay, so what's a complete blanket worth, and where can someone buy an uncut one?
A few years back, I was lucky enough to score a box with several of them for only $654.20 (shipped) from RR Auctions... 1 small blanket, 2 medium sized blankets, and 5 large blankets.Later, from looking up logs, I discovered that one was from a Spacelab Igloo (no flight history known) and even had a manufacturer tag from a German company, another covered a wire tray on Atlantis, this and this blanket were from Endeavour and had a very interesting history relating to the Extended Duration Orbiter project. (Short version: They were designed for EDO and flew on Endeavour for a few flights before it was discovered that holes cut into the blankets were placed incorrectly for the EDO cryo lines to fit. They were scrapped, and new blankets made while preparing for Endeavour's one and only EDO flight.) Two were discovered to make up the hatch cover on a tunnel adapter airlock, which flew on Columbia. Another, with a very interesting design, was found to have flown on Discovery. And the last, I've yet to find any information about. You never know what you'll be able to find in auctions. Plus, most of that history I mentioned above, I didn't even discover until about a year or two after I bought the blankets. Discovering that information dramatically raised their historical and sentimental value for me. |
garymilgrom
Member Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 04-26-2016 01:49 PM
How did you find out your blankets' provenance? I have an SRB Aft Skirt Blanket and it has two serial numbers on the side opposite the "whalebone" (bottom of pic; numbers are at top and not shown). I don't think any of these survived being flown, certainly not in new condition like this, so it's not flown. But it would be interesting to find if it had been made for a specific mission.  |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 04-26-2016 08:38 PM
There's a database curated by JSC, which any NASA employees or contractors at any NASA center can access, which is a knowledge capture of all sorts of documents, training manuals, and logs etc from the space shuttle program. Some of it is ITAR restricted meaning only US citizens can see it, however the information otherwise isn't restricted. I got information about my blankets from two sub databases: one was a collection of drawings where you could look up drawings by part number. Another database contained reports of work orders relating to replacing damaged or incorrect space shuttle hardware. I was lucky to find most of my blankets' serial numbers although there were a couple that were missing. For example the Space lab blanket I have isn't mentioned because it wasn't actually Orbiter hardware. Now for anyone else wanting info about their shuttle hardware from the database, only options would be to either be hired by NASA or a contractor, or to submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request stating that you want someone to search those databases for your part numbers. If you want to go that route I can give you more information via email so that your FOIA request will be more specific. They'll reject any FOIA requests which they don't feel are specific enough. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 04-26-2016 08:52 PM
I must admit, I'd love to have one of the smaller ones of these... |
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