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  171152559269: Neil Armstrong signed cover

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Author Topic:   171152559269: Neil Armstrong signed cover
Michael1976
Member

Posts: 88
From: Chandler, AZ 85249
Registered: Nov 2011

posted 10-21-2013 02:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael1976   Click Here to Email Michael1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just looking for some thoughts on authenticity? 171152559269 Thanks.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 423
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 10-21-2013 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would not be interested in buying this item at any price.

neo1022
Member

Posts: 51
From: Santa Monica, CA
Registered: Jun 2013

posted 10-21-2013 11:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo1022   Click Here to Email neo1022     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve, out of curiosity, what don't you like about this. I'm scared stiff when it comes to Armstrong sigs, but in comparing this to other good examples, I'm having a hard time seeing and obvious "tells"... What are the warning bells you focus on? Thanks, Kevin

Michael1976
Member

Posts: 88
From: Chandler, AZ 85249
Registered: Nov 2011

posted 10-21-2013 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael1976   Click Here to Email Michael1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd like to take a shot and see how my "eye" ranks against a great expert.

The N is signed slowly and shaky. The beginning point of the E is higher than normal. The EIL is very round as well as the loop in the L. The downstroke of the A is too close to the upstroke. The crossing of the last name looks like it was drawn with a ruler. And lastly the loop underscore had to many hesitations.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 423
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 10-22-2013 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by neo1022:
Steve, out of curiosity, what don't you like about this.
Kevin, I prefer not to highlight correctable flaws in a public forum, but Michael makes some good observations. However, you need to be careful because very often authentic Armstrongs will contain atypical traits that match one or more of the issues this one has.

In this case, the "whole" assemblage is a style I have seen many times before. It is actually a decent effort in my opinion. But, after seeing it many times, I recognize the "look and feel" of it. Because it is not a natural act, forgers have to "learn" a signature and they essentially pump out cookie cutter replications with little variation. Once you recognize a "look," you can see them from across the room. In my opinion, there is no shortcut to this... it is simply a matter of seeing many good and bad examples over time and training your eye.

neo1022
Member

Posts: 51
From: Santa Monica, CA
Registered: Jun 2013

posted 10-22-2013 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo1022   Click Here to Email neo1022     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve, thanks for the comments. It hadn't even occurred to me that there was an issue with revealing the details of authentication (but of course, it's obvious now that I think about it).

It's clear that authentication is as much art as science, and like anything, the gestalt impression matters greatly (after being honed over many years of careful comparative observation).

Thanks again for your willingness to provide expert opinion to those of us who are new to collecting in this area... That's what makes cS such a wonderful place....

DChudwin
Member

Posts: 1022
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 10-22-2013 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DChudwin   Click Here to Email DChudwin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not an expert like Steve, but I agree with his conclusion that this signature is not typical.

One oddity about the signature is the narrowness of the "A" in the last name; usually at least the top of the "A" is more expansive.

astrobock
Member

Posts: 71
From: WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2006

posted 10-22-2013 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astrobock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am far from an expert as well, but who here signs their name exaclty the same every time? Maybe a cheap pen was being used. Does the fact the owner bought it 20 years ago hold any weight for it being authentic?

astrobock
Member

Posts: 71
From: WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2006

posted 10-22-2013 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astrobock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The other thing about this is the signature is butt up against the cancellation. When signing there wasn't the freedom of extra space and maybe that's why it seems "thinner" and "slower". The seller also has a great feedback rating which should be taken into consideration. Just some thoughts.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member

Posts: 2386
From: Toms River, NJ,USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 10-22-2013 09:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Even if I'm rushed, such as signing my initials to a document, I have the same characteristics to that. If I have to sign my name clearly, such as a multi-page contract, I have the same characteristics to every signature.

By contrast, my wife can't sign my last name and does an S and a scribble. Yet I can't duplicate that - the angle and where we hold pens are different, the speed, the trailoff. So I can duplicate my attempt at signing her name - but I can't duplicate her signature.

fredtrav
Member

Posts: 1069
From: Birmingham AL USA
Registered: Aug 2010

posted 10-23-2013 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fredtrav   Click Here to Email fredtrav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not going to comment on the authenticity, as other people much more experienced are doing that, but I will address the feedback issue. Yes the seller has great feedback. However a cursory glance at several pages of the feedback and I do not see autographs as items feedback is left on. See the thread on the Frank Borman"signed" book. It was clearly a fake and this is not the first one this dealer has had for sale. I have only seen one out of dozens of signed books that the seller listed that might be real, yet the feedback shows 100% over the past 12 months. There was only one negative posted at one point and a couple of neutrals because of shipping problems.

People buy this stuff not realizing that they have bought a fake, maybe in a year, maybe never. They leave good feedback because they do not know what they bought. A lot of sellers almost "blackmail" buyers by not leaving feedback until the buyer has. The buyer leaves a negative and gets blasted in turn. I will not leave feedback a lot of the time if new feedback is not left for me as a buyer after I have paid for the item. I leave feedback the few times I have sold after payment is received. If they have paid in a timely fashion they get good feedback even before the item is shipped.

Final thought is the seller is indeed a good seller. Autographs is not his norm and he has owned this for 20 years, He may( probably) not know that the signature is bad, and is selling it as he bought it as genuine.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2686
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 10-24-2013 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree totally that a seller may well be unaware that the items is fake, and fakes this good are unlikely to be recognised by buyers too making the seller's feedback irrelevant in this context.

However, although slightly off topic I did want to comment on this point you made:

quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
... A lot of sellers almost "blackmail" buyers by not leaving feedback until the buyer has. The buyer leaves a negative and gets blasted in turn. I will not leave feedback a lot of the time if new feedback is not left for me as a buyer after I have paid for the item. I leave feedback the few times I have sold after payment is received. If they have paid in a timely fashion they get good feedback even before the item is shipped.

I think that most people who sell regularly on eBay would tend to disagree with this.

I never leave feedback for a buyer until they have left feedback for me.

The main reason is that the transaction is not complete until they have done so. Only the buyer knows when they have safely received an item and only they can let the seller know that they are happy with the item.

The buyer is heavily protected by eBay in that they can usually decide to return an item they're not happy with and demand a refund, even if they've made a mistake or just changed their minds. Also, they can leave negative feedback at any time which severely damages the seller's reputation and ability to sell. They can do this without any real justification.

By contrast a seller can only leave positive feedback for a buyer or none at all. So it's the buyer who can potentially blackmail a seller, not the other way round.

For these reasons, as a seller I always wait until the transaction is complete, as notified to me by the buyer leaving feedback, before I leave feedback for them.

All times are CT (US)

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