Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

Websites
related space history websites

  collectSPACE: Messages
  Opinions & Advice
  Space shuttle orbiter flags on eBay: authentic?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Space shuttle orbiter flags on eBay: authentic?
DCM
New Member

Posts:
From:
Registered:

posted 12-20-2012 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DCM   Click Here to Email DCM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone here purchased any of the 3x5 foot shuttle flags that have surfaced on eBay. If so what is the quality of the flags? Do you think they are official NASA issue?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 30069
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 12-20-2012 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't speak to specific sales without seeing them (obviously), but here's an explanation for a good number of the flags listed from a post I wrote in Nov. 2010:
So how is it that Annin & Co. flags are being listed and sold on eBay?

Within the past several months or so, what began as a small order at Kennedy Space Center spread to encompass two very large batch orders by NASA and contractor employees at all the centers and facilities. By very large, I mean thousands of flags, if not also thousands of sets of flags (each of the orbiters, excluding Enterprise but including Challenger, for which an original Spaceflight Awareness flag never existed).

Because of the size of these orders, the flags were available to employees at $20 each, or $100 for the set of five.

Skuz9c1
New Member

Posts: 9
From: Wyoming, Michigan, USA
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 12-22-2012 09:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skuz9c1   Click Here to Email Skuz9c1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The original Annin flags are 4'x6'

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 12-23-2012 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It didn't occur to me that these could be pirated flags. Does anyone think they might be unlicensed copies, or just a different production run? I just won two of these on eBay but haven't paid yet. If they're unlicensed copies, I won't be paying them in such a case...

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 12-26-2012 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've e-mailed the seller twice so far asking where he got these.

It really chaps me that someone might be making copies of the complete flags. Surely, someone should know if they're copies or not, right?

Anyone?

Greggy_D
Member

Posts: 780
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 12-26-2012 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greggy_D   Click Here to Email Greggy_D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not seeing the Annin logo along the edge of the 3x5 flags. Personally, I wouldn't bid on them.

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 12-27-2012 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I looked up Annin & Co online and called them. They never heard of these flags before and the lady I talked with was pretty ticked when I described them ("Oh really? Do you have that eBay listing number so we can look at it?"). The seller has not returned any of my messages asking if this is a NASA sanctioned flag set or not. Clearly, not a good sign.

I'm just glad I realized this before I made any payment. I contacted eBay and let them know they appear to be fakes. We'll see where this goes...

GACspaceguy
Member

Posts: 1590
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 12-27-2012 11:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GACspaceguy   Click Here to Email GACspaceguy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Too late for me, as I had bought two of them.

As I am a buyer I sent a question asking about authenticity but so far no response. It is pretty obvious to me now that these are knock offs so I plan to contact eBay once the items arrives.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 30069
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 12-27-2012 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This may be something worthy of bringing to the attention of NASA's Office of Inspector General, too. My understanding, based on what I was told by NASA public affairs officers over the years, was that the orbiter flag designs were protected for use, and only those authorized by the space agency were allowed to reproduce them.

NASA authorized Annin & Co. to produce the flags for use by the space shuttle program and in 2010, for distribution to employees and contractors. I'm not aware of further permissions being granted since then.

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 12-27-2012 11:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GACspaceguy:
As I am a buyer I sent a question asking about authenticity but so far no response.
Yeah, same here, more than once, too. I doubt we were the only two who did.

To me, that's a pretty clear indication of what these really are.

I hope I don't take the hit for not paying for the two I won the listing for, but I'm willing to take that chance. I only bid because I just didn't pay attention, darn it.

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 12-28-2012 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The seller filed a nonpayment claim yesterday for me not paying for these fake flags. I called eBay and got a serious non-answer in that regard. I think I was told that they're reviewing my report that these are counterfeits, but the claim of non-payment is still also being reviewed. I think they said that if my claim has merit, they'll delete my responsibility to pay for these two fake flags. At least that what I think they said, the person on the phone wasn't very good at describing their position...

I sent a message to the seller that said, in effect, good luck getting your money, because I don't pay for faked items.

So, what response did I get from that? Sure wasn't what I expected; I got positive feedback about half an hour later from him! Yeah, tell me the guy doesn't know he's faking the things!

I suggest people file reports against all these fake flags that this guy is flooding the market with.

dragon001
New Member

Posts:
From:
Registered:

posted 12-29-2012 12:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragon001   Click Here to Email dragon001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have an opinion on the 4'x6' orbiter flags that are on eBay now and again? Are there anythings to look for that would show it as legit/NASA sanctioned for use or employee purchase?

Gonzo
Member

Posts: 506
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 12-29-2012 06:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gonzo   Click Here to Email Gonzo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes - it will have "Annin Co." or their logo on the border. And yes, the sanctioned ones will be 4'x6'.

garymilgrom
Member

Posts: 1772
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 12-29-2012 07:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a close up and wider view of the markings on the real flags. This is the top left corner of an Enterprise flag.

flag cu

flag situ

Ronpur
Member

Posts: 510
From: Brandon, Fl
Registered: May 2012

posted 01-04-2013 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronpur   Click Here to Email Ronpur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just bought an Enterprise flag from ebay and it does not have the logo shown in the above picture. It was less that $20 so it was still a deal and looks great on my wall. I also ordered an Atlantis flag, so I expect it to be the same. If I get it anyway. The payment for that flag is still unclaimed. And no response from my email. I am not too upset these are fakes, I planned to tack it to the wall above my models for a nice backdrop. I would have been upset if I had paid the price that a real flag goes for and expected an original.

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 01-04-2013 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The seller is a total flake.

I never paid him, but he gave me positive feedback, then filed a non-payment claim. I had a log discussion with eBay on the phone last night and explained what these were and that they're fakes. I was told they have an entire team of people who look into that as it's a liability for them to be a vendor for fake anything. I even gave them the contact info for the real flag makers, as there's no reason to just take my word for it.

I'm just glad I found out before any money changed hands. I'll be darned if I'm paying for a known copy of something that can be bought commercially!

dragon001
New Member

Posts:
From:
Registered:

posted 01-05-2013 11:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragon001   Click Here to Email dragon001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Search eBay for "authentic space shuttle flag." Several sellers are listing 4x6 Annin flags for $89 starting bid/$99 buy it now.

The listings include the picture of the Annin logo on the flag.

My Challenger 4'x6' flag should be at my door Monday.

Ronpur
Member

Posts: 510
From: Brandon, Fl
Registered: May 2012

posted 01-06-2013 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronpur   Click Here to Email Ronpur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe I can afford one of those flags. I was hoping to get a complete set of the replicas, but it looks like they are gone.

Tykeanaut
Member

Posts: 1843
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008

posted 01-06-2013 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tykeanaut   Click Here to Email Tykeanaut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If an item is not what it's supposed to be you are well within your rights to return it and not pay for it.

Fezman92
Member

Posts: 1030
From: New Jersey, USA
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 01-06-2013 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fezman92   Click Here to Email Fezman92     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Two years ago or so I snagged an official Endeavour flag so I am happy with what I have.

Zach121k
Member

Posts: 61
From: Fenton, Missouri, USA
Registered: Feb 2013

posted 02-07-2013 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zach121k   Click Here to Email Zach121k     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Last December I received this Atlantis flag as a gift from my family. They bought the flag off of eBay. The listing was identical to this one. It came with the 4X6 Flag and Press Notebook.

Is this an authentic NASA flag. Or was I ripped off?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

Gonzo
Member

Posts: 506
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 02-07-2013 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gonzo   Click Here to Email Gonzo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good news, Zach. It has the Annin markings in the corner. It's authentic.

Zach121k
Member

Posts: 61
From: Fenton, Missouri, USA
Registered: Feb 2013

posted 02-07-2013 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zach121k   Click Here to Email Zach121k     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes! I guess its from 135 like it said?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 30069
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-07-2013 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The reporter's notebook is from STS-135, but the flag was not used by the space shuttle program. See my reply from Dec. 20, 2012 (above) for the history of where these flags originated.

Zach121k
Member

Posts: 61
From: Fenton, Missouri, USA
Registered: Feb 2013

posted 02-08-2013 09:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zach121k   Click Here to Email Zach121k     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But it is still authentic NASA correct.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 30069
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-08-2013 09:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is an authentic Annin Co. flag, the only company that was authorized by NASA to produce them for employees.

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 02-08-2013 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tykeanaut:
If an item is not what it's supposed to be you are well within your rights to return it and not pay for it.
eBay saw it differently. I got nailed with a failure to pay notification anyway. Their people told me there was nothing they could do about it, but as long as I don't 'make a habit of not paying' I would be fine. I replied that depended on how many fake items they allowed to be run on their site. They didn't like that response...

Zach121k
Member

Posts: 61
From: Fenton, Missouri, USA
Registered: Feb 2013

posted 02-08-2013 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zach121k   Click Here to Email Zach121k     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is it the same that flew? So it is real NASA.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 30069
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-08-2013 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Annin Co. flags are the same as those that flew over the launch pad and press site at Kennedy Space Center, as well as elsewhere around the Florida spaceport and at other NASA facilities.

The flags were also the same as was carried onboard the orbiters, though their primary use was for ground operations. The flags for sale now however, were not produced for operational use but as mementos for space program employees.

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 04-15-2013 12:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Beats me how he's getting away with it, but someone’s making 3 by 5 copies of these flags complete with the "Manned Space Flight Awareness" logo. Check out eBay item #221213261781 for an example, he has them for all the orbiters.

Greggy_D
Member

Posts: 780
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 04-15-2013 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greggy_D   Click Here to Email Greggy_D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At least the listing indicates the flag is a replica.

p51
Member

Posts: 1073
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 04-15-2013 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Greggy_D:
At least the listing indicates the flag is a replica.
Agreed. I give the seller props for being honest, but with the logos in place it seems a pretty harsh violation of the copyright/trademark...

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 30069
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-15-2013 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is not a copyright or trademark issue; NASA does not claim either. It is however, counter to NASA policy to allow the orbiter flags to be reproduced without the agency's permission.

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Copyright 1999-2014 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a





advertisement