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Author
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Topic: How to identify a piece of shuttle Challenger
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Henke71
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posted 04-10-2012 06:34 PM
   
I'm writing on behalf of my Swiss friend who doesn't speak English.He recently purchased a torn piece of metal with many rivets and claims it's a piece of Challenger. He paid €9,000 to a collector from Germany. The piece of metal is the size of my hand. Would it be possible to confirm that it's a piece of the shuttle, external tank or booster by analyzing the metal (alloys) with an XRF gun? Did they use uncommon alloys in the shuttles? Were these alloys also used in airplanes? Do you think €9,000 is a fair price for such a piece if it's genuine? |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 04-10-2012 06:45 PM
If it is genuine, than he shouldn't have it — Challenger is still property of the United States government, even though a big percent is at the bottom of the ocean. So it's against US law for anyone to have pieces of it. Plus, while it might not apply to pieces of metal (depending on what they are), some rocket parts are illegal to export out of the US because of ITAR. |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 04-10-2012 06:55 PM
I hope it is not the same piece discussed in this thread last year 330513683599: Possible Challenger fragment.If he has an actual piece of Challenger than it is illegal. As far as it being worth Euro, 9,000 I would doubt it as there is very limited resale market. You have to find someone who does not care about the law and will not display it openly or try to sell it through conventional channels. |
Henke71
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posted 04-10-2012 06:58 PM
Okay, thank you for this information, I did not know it was illegal to own a piece of Challenger. I don't think my friend knows either.Now that the piece is in Switzerland (it was in Italy, then Germany, then Switzerland), the American law shouldn't apply, right? The only person guilty of something should be the one who picked the piece up and shipped it to Europe. Any idea on how to confirm if the piece is indeed from Challenger? |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 04-10-2012 07:11 PM
I do not know all the relevant laws, however if someone stole something in Germany and brought it to the US it is still theft. I do not know if the US would (or could prosecute) overseas, but owning it is still being party to a crime. If your friend can get his money back, then he should return the piece to the seller. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-10-2012 07:20 PM
Post an image to this forum of item. |
Henke71
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posted 04-10-2012 07:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
I hope it is not the same piece discussed in this thread last year...
It is not a triangle like the piece you just spoke about. My friend's looks smaller and is rectangular. Is is also two pieces of metal (with the same colours as in the pictures) which are held together with the same exact rivets. Maybe I could get my friend to send me some photographs. Has it been established that the piece shown in the earlier thread is from Challenger? I will tell my friend about the legal issue. Thank you. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 04-10-2012 07:24 PM
That's a lot of money to pay for something that is not verifiable on sight. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 04-10-2012 08:35 PM
One point which no-one has mentioned yet is the immorality of trading in parts of a spacecraft in which seven human beings died. Shame on the people who were a party to this. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-10-2012 10:36 PM
You're entitled to your opinion — the morality of selling artifacts associated with accidents has been debated in previous threats. Where legally permissible, I see nothing wrong with doing so — the artifact offers a vehicle for reminding individuals of the event that transpired. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-10-2012 10:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
Where legally permissible...
Which, to be clear, is not the case with Challenger debris, which remains the property of the U.S. government.But thus far, I haven't seen anything that suggests that the item in question was in fact from Challenger. It seems odd to me that someone with enough concerns to inquire about independently establishing authenticity would spend more than $14,000 (at current exchange rates) for what could amount to a chunk of run of the mill metal. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-11-2012 05:33 AM
In (partial) response to one of the original questions, the shuttle was constructed mostly out of aluminum, not something exotic like titanium.And to be clear: it is illegal to own a piece of Challenger from 51L. There are pieces of Challenger that were removed from earlier flights and made into presentation pieces that are fine. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-11-2012 07:51 AM
While predominately aluminum, lots of titanium was used in the Shuttle's fabrication. In addition the frame of the external tank was Ti alloy. |
Henke71
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posted 04-11-2012 11:54 AM
Thank you for your replies.The point of all this is to establish authenticity (or a reasonable degree of likelihood the piece is authentic) before completing the transaction. We're working closely with the seller. The money will be returned if non-destructive means of investigation reveal that the piece can't originate from Challenger. We also have a backstory about the piece but I can't share it on a public forum. As for the morality of such a purchase, legal issues aside, I truly don't believe it's worse than selling an autograph of one of the crew at a premium or buying a shipwreck coin. It's a tragic moment in mankind's history but it's part of history. The investigation was closed decades ago. Thank you Hart and SpaceAholic for the information about the metals used to build the shuttles. I'll report back when we have the results of the XRF analysis. I can already say that the rivets are the only parts that are attracted by a magnet. In the other thread about a possible Challenger fragment, GACspaceguy states that "The fasteners shown are defiantly aerospace type and are clearly what are called Hi-Shear rivets (looks like HS11 pins and HS15 collars based on the fact that the pin is corroded it looks like it is alloy steel and the red collar). It looks to be attaching splice of aluminum skins." Is this a good clue? |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 04-11-2012 02:09 PM
But the issue here is that it -is- illegal. You simply cannot have a piece of Challenger from the accident because it is government property. It doesn't matter if it's still in the U.S. or not nor if it's non-intact 'junk' or not, that doesn't make it any less government property. It may be a little harder for the government to reclaim, but its still their property. Even if it's just a chunk of aluminum with rivets, I imagine the US government would not take kindly to a piece of their property being sold overseas for $14,000. Personally if I were you, I would steer very far away from buying it, and report the seller to the NASA Office of Inspector General (For one thing, $14,000 is a huge ripoff for a piece of metal even if it is authentic. You can get generously sized pieces of material flown on board the space shuttle legally for a couple orders of magnitude less, although tiles and AFRSI can't be exported legally without permission. I believe your seller is ripping you off because he knows how premium it is to own illegal wreckage.) |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 04-11-2012 07:28 PM
I wish you luck in determining if it’s actually from Challenger or not. Unless it has some kind of inspection stamp or model number on it, you’re not likely going to be able to know for sure if it’s from the orbiter or not. quote:
Originally posted by Henke71:
As for the morality of such a purchase, legal issues aside, I truly don't believe it's worse than selling an autograph of one of the crew at a premium or buying a shipwreck coin. It's a tragic moment in mankind's history but it's part of history. The investigation was closed decades ago.
The legal issue of owning a piece of the orbiter from the incident is a given fact. It's illegal, period, but I have no idea how far NASA would go in regard to a citizen of a EU nation owning a piece of it.All that said, I have pieces in my collection of military aircraft that were involved in combat and peacetime crash related impacts, some with deaths on board. I have a piece of the wing of a B-17 bomber that crashed and killed a few crewmen. If I didn't have it, it’d be sitting out in the woods corroding away slowly. Sure, there is a sad story attached to it, but what good does it do anyone sitting out in the weeds? Should I feel bad for having it in my collection because people died when the plane hit that mountain? I'm former military and have survived two aviation crashes, one of which had a few fatalities. Would I be offended if I hear later that someone has pieces from that helicopter in a collection? No, not at all. Legalities are one thing, but I don't get the whole, "Some died, how could you think of owning a piece of it?" mentality. If it were legal to own a piece of the Challenger, and I got the chance to buy a part of it, I probably would if I could justify the cost. |
liebeek
Member Posts: 247
From: the netherlands
Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 04-13-2012 01:56 PM
I am lost here. First he bought it for €9000.The transaction is not completed. Then there is some kind of agreement to return the money. The piece has been in three countries. It is not sure if it is an actual piece of the tragic flight. Why in THE world would you wait to get THE money back. Either it is illegal to own it or it is not the real thing. |
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