posted 11-04-2009 09:59 PM               

She inscribed it, and stated "I hope you believe in your dreams and work to accomplish them."

It looks like the owner IS working to accomplish those dreams, because... the litho was dated by Ms. Metcalf-Lindenburger on the date she signed it...

...just 19 days ago.

posted 11-06-2009 06:44 AM               

I hope it goes unsold. I'd like to be able to flag the astronaut office so that at least this person isn't able to repeat this with another astronaut.

posted 12-16-2009 07:34 PM               

Same seller with yet ANOTHER Dottie M-L signed litho ... signed just over 1 month ago!

posted 12-17-2009 10:15 AM               

The seller's last 114 purchases on e-Bay, dating back to Nov '08, were all from the same seller. None of those purchases were this particular Dotti M-L litho, which was signed on Nov 13, 2009.

Assuming it took, say, a week after she signed it for the mail service to deliver it to the requester, that means the seller had 23 days (with the Thanksgiving break included) to get the signed litho from the original requester and get it posted for sale on eBay.

Every time this seller puts a Dottie M-L litho up for sale, it is placed for sale very, very shortly after it was signed. He/she is either requesting them him/her self or asking someone close to him/her to do it. It walks and quacks too much like a duck to not be a duck.

It is irrelevant whether past sales were to cSers or not. There are people registered on this site who care about those kinds of things and others who don't.

It is just a shame that people send letters to the same astronauts repeatedly, basically saying "would you please send me a $20 bill?". And the letter accompanying the request is likely saying something like "I've always wanted to be an astronaut -- do you have any advice for me?", based upon the inscriptions on the lithos. It is dishonest and can only be bad for this hobby.

In my opinion, tetschen1 deserves more flak than he/she is receiving here.

posted 12-18-2009 12:04 PM               

'Tetschen' was either deceitful in his request for Metcalf-Lindenburger's autograph or he is enabling the person committing the deceit.

posted 12-18-2009 12:13 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
It troubles me though, that this even needs to be explained. It was this very type of activity that resulted in prior astronauts retiring from signing or beginning to charge for their autograph. To excuse this type of behavior (or worse, to enable it, by buying from someone committing it) is to suggest we have learned nothing from history.

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posted 12-20-2009 05:22 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
...it's the only chance many european collectors will have to acquire the material at a reasonable price: we can't all afford to visit the Cape 20 times a year!

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Yes, sometimes you won't receive a reply, and sometimes you may get an autopen, but that is part of the challenge of collecting, right? I mean, if this seller, who is located a good distance away from the Cape and Houston, is capable of obtaining at least three freely-obtained authentic autographs from one astronaut in a period of months, then other collectors should have a fair chance of doing so too, right?

posted 12-20-2009 06:53 AM               

The only time I've met Robert in the flesh was when he was, I think, 'minding' Buzz Aldrin at a past Autographica: that level of intimacy is not granted to many of us over here! If we want to meet our heroes or get them to sign something, we accept that it will cost us. If they are retired astronauts, we accept it will cost us more! And an individual having retired doesn't necessarily make their autographs more accessible (or affordable) of course!

posted 12-20-2009 07:24 AM               

Know what? Just because YOU believe something, that doesn't make it right! You're entitled to an opinion but so are the people who hold a contrary one!

The fact that the secondary market continues to thrive suggests that the second group is in the majority.

posted 12-20-2009 09:10 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
Lastly, 'tetschen' can't really be labelled a money-grabbing exploiter of astronauts: he/she got less than eight bucks, so has made some collector happy for a minimal outlay!

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Considering that, paying 8 US-Dollar plus postage to some eBay seller means indeed saving money, and the seller is providing a service to that collector, just as David says.

PS: Even if you don't send a litho, just a request letter, this costs 1,70 Euro, roughly 2.50 US-Dollar. That is more than five times the amount an American seller pays for his 44c request letter.

------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany

posted 12-20-2009 06:10 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by eurospace:
Sending a litho or glossy with a letter and a cardboard stiffener from Germany to the US costs you 6 sweet Euro each, that is about 9 US-Dollar. Adding return postage usually comes at around 4 Dollar.

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I'll give it one last try. Does anyone think it is ok if the requestor says something like this in their letter,

"Dear Ms. M-L -

I am very impressed with your career as an astronaut. I have always wanted to become a ______ (fill in the blank) -- do you have any advice for me?

Also, if you don't mind, would you please send me an autographed photo?

Thank you!

Signed - Whomever"

The astronaut in question then personally autographs and dedicates the litho, providing an inspirational inscription for someone who she thinks is an admirer.

Instead, the requestor then puts the litho on e-Bay around 1-2 weeks after receiving it (so, clearly, the intent was to sell it, not to get inspired).

This practice is clearly dishonest! The seller lied (or had someone lie for him/her) to get a free autograph to sell!

Help me to understand how it is ok to obtain a free autograph under clearly false pretenses and then IMMEDIATELY turn around and sell it???

The fact that perhaps someone gets a "good deal" compared to what it would cost to request one him/herself is COMPLETELY irrelevant (IMO).

posted 12-20-2009 06:21 PM               

This lady is top class. She tries to accomodate every person that writes to her. I really feel bad about somebody trying to get some money out of her kindness.

A real spacefan never sels their dedicated astronaut lithos. (They were a gift for the people that admire her)

(I would never sell my dedicated pictures)

posted 12-20-2009 07:40 PM               

However, I believe many collectors agree that the behavior of the specific seller being discussed here (requesting the autograph solely to turn around and sell it as quickly as possible) is damaging to the hobby. It makes astronauts think that any request might be someone in it just for the money instead of from someone truly interested in the space program, and therefore might make them less likely to respond to requests in the future.

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
Without polling each one, there is no way of knowing how individual astronauts feel about seeing their autographs on eBay, Astro-Auctions, here or anywhere else. Some may, as you suggest, be resentful: some may have neutral feelings and some may even be flattered!

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Well, it's not polling each one, but we can know how one individual astronaut felt about seeing his autograph going up for sale online. On page 622 of "First Man", the authorized biography of Neil Armstrong, administrative aide Vivian White describes how he stopped signing autographs in about 1993 not because he was tired of it, but because "he realized that his autographs were being sold over the Internet." So there's a chance that every cS member could have received an Armstrong WSS in the last last 15 years just for the cost of return postage if it hadn't been for such sellers.

posted 12-21-2009 02:12 AM               

Add to which, we don't really know the 'non-signers' reasons: there have been a number of possible alternatives suggested.

posted 12-21-2009 11:56 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
Hmmmm.... Let's have one last thought. One or two astronauts have decided to stop signing or become elusive, possibly as a result of their distaste for the secondary market (Armstrong, Mattingly, Anders, etc.) How many other astronauts are there? At this moment, around 500! You do the math!

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I think it's time for you to re-do your math. Name the number of Mercury-Gemini-Apollo astronauts that still sign for free. Compare that number against how many don't sign at all or will only sign for a fee. With very few exceptions, the secondary market drove most of these guys to stop signing or start charging a fee.

Now look at the shuttle astronauts. Many of the early shuttle astronauts signed for free through the mail...and some still do. But increasing numbers of them have stopped signing altogether. Also, it's no coincidence that the signing habits of the more recent astronaut classes (that came after the widespread use of the internet) are the poorest signing astronaut groups of them all...with few being willing to sign through the mail. The ones that do sign can be spotty. And the very few that are good about signing (like Dottie ML) are being exploited...and surely will soon be re-thinking their policy about signing mailed-in requests.

If you think the majority of the 500 astronaut signatures are easy to obtain for free, think again.

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
Lastly: it is common practice among collectors to obtain multiples so they can sell the extras to defray their costs. Some astronauts are aware of this and only sign with a dedication (Walt Cunningham seems recently to have adopted this policy!)

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posted 12-21-2009 01:26 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
Lastly: it is common practice among collectors to obtain multiples so they can sell the extras to defray their costs.

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posted 12-21-2009 02:49 PM               

1) I questioned the honesty / motives of SOME of the posters

2) I NEVER questioned the honesty of any astronauts!

As well as you know some of the Astronaut Corps, Robert, you can't read minds anymore than I can, so we have no absolute knowledge of anyone's prime motive for charging for an autograph. What IS certain is that the Apollo / Gemini astronauts are well aware of what their erstwhile colleagues charge and that some of them adjust accordingly.

posted 12-21-2009 02:54 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
And this fear of being exploited by someone making a quick buck on EBay is what 'forces' them to charge up to $300 for an autograph?

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quote:

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Also: if that were the true rationale, why not pass the signing fees on to charity?

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quote:

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I think what annoys some people is that ANYONE in ANY COUNTRY with enough disposable income can now rapidly acquire a full set of M,G and A autographs through the secondary market

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We've had this discussion numerous times in the past. But it doesn't seem to sink in with certain people. To simplify it, there is a big difference between:

1. A collector who truly admires the astronaut obtaining a signature for free, then selling it off 10-20 years down the road when their interests change or they decide to thin out their collection.

2. A collector who obtains a free signature under false pretense in order to immediately sell it for a profit, offering it up on eBay only days after it was signed.

Can you tell the difference between the above two scenarios?

(And often, many of the items on the secondary market come from families of NASA workers, or families of older collectors, who pass along the signatures once their family member has passed away.)

The crux of this thread is concerning those who only obtain signatures for immediate re-sale. It has NOTHING to do with USA collectors being territorial against overseas collectors.

posted 12-21-2009 02:59 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Bryant:
As well as you know some of the Astronaut Corps, Robert, you can't read minds anymore than I can, so we have no absolute knowledge of anyone's prime motive for charging for an autograph.

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posted 12-21-2009 03:12 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Bryant:
I NEVER questioned the honesty of any astronauts!

...we have no absolute knowledge of anyone's prime motive for charging for an autograph.

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posted 12-21-2009 03:16 PM               

1. The secondary market is inevitable, and isn't going to disappear.

2. Is it fair to write to a serving astronaut and then sell any resultant item? General view seems to be that it's not in good taste, and might discourage further free signing. Some see a second or third item, signed at the same time, as fair game for selling on.

posted 12-21-2009 03:30 PM               

There is NO evidence that 'Tetschen' is the person who asked for D M-L's autograph. He or she could just as easily be selling it on having legitimately acquired it from a third party. As I intimated above, I am ALWAYS being offered signed books by people who queued up for them with the express intention of selling them on.

What the astronauts do or don't do with the money they take from signing is up to them: BUT! They still take it from the pockets of genuine collectors and they are the ones who set the prices! When Joe Public spends $300 for an autograph, it doesn't help his relationship with his bank manager because it's going to charity! And good luck to them! No-one forces anyone to participate in what is, after all, a HOBBY!

Finally: how can anyone possibly pretend to know that 'often many of the items come from NASA workers etc who pass away' That's just an assumption based on what SOME of the part-timers who sell on eBay claim! (I'll make the assumption that SOME people, at least, do this to add credibility to their provenance.)

To return to the original point: a dealer on eBay offers for sale a few autographs that MAY or may not have been obtained under false pretenses. Some posters on here have used this as a reason to attack the secondary market: I respond by pointing out that most astronauts (i.e. all but 3 or 4) have not used the resale of their autographs as a reason to stop signing, but as an opportunity to participate in a healthy and lucrative trade! (Whether they use this as an addition to their pensions, to expand or set up a museum or to make donations to charity is immaterial to the point I'm making.

posted 12-21-2009 04:16 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
"Two great nations separated by a common language..."

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quote:

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There is NO evidence that 'Tetschen' is the person who asked for D M-L's autograph. He or she could just as easily be selling it on having legitimately acquired it from a third party.

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quote:

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Finally: how can anyone possibly pretend to know that 'often many of the items come from NASA workers etc who pass away' That's just an assumption based on what SOME of the part-timers who sell on eBay claim!

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posted 12-21-2009 04:45 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bryant:
"Two great nations separated by a common language..."

Winston S Churchill (Not I!)

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It doesn't matter who said it. It is *YOU* who is bringing it into this discussion at this time. See the difference?

posted 12-21-2009 05:06 PM               

In the UK we have the Health and Safety Executive ruining our everyday lives to save us from ruining our everyday lives.

It seems to be the way of the world lately.

posted 12-21-2009 05:23 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by poofacio:
one of the few things that tends to ruin this fascinating hobby is self opinionated people dictating how others should behave in order to save ruining this fascinating hobby.

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Who is dictating anything? We're all just sharing opinions here. The way I see it, if I see someone in this hobby who is being selfish and ruining the ability for the rest of us to obtain autographs, I'm going to speak out.

posted 12-21-2009 05:49 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mjanovec:
And apparently it was George Bernard Shaw who said it, not Churchill.

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