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Topic: Authenticity of a Buzz Aldrin autograph?
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nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 02:21 PM
   
Someone gave me this framed photo with a Buzz signature. I am 100% certain that this is real ink and not an autopen. Question is, is this Buzz's signature or a fake? |
Jurg Bolli
Member Posts: 977
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 08-28-2009 02:42 PM
I am by no means an expert but this one looks pretty bad.Jurg |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 08-28-2009 03:05 PM
Yep, I'll agree, not good. |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 08-28-2009 03:18 PM
That is appalling!! If you look at the "A" of Aldrin you can see at the middle of the top of the letter it looks as though the "signer" has stopped to correct himself... I doubt Buzz would ever do that! |
nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 04:35 PM
OK guys, I'll come straight before anyone else joins in. And I know I'll get shot down by many people for this, but I think it is important to prove a point. The autograph is genuine! It was cut out and framed from Buzz's latest signed book, bought in person by me from his talk at the London Southbank Festival last month. He signed 900 or so books and this is a cut out from one of them. The reason for this post was not to try and make anyone look a fool but was to demonstrate just how difficult it is to tell if a signature is genuine or not. About 70% of the posts on this site are from people asking if their purchased (or about to purchase) signatures are real, and most people try and give their honest opinion. However, people should not reply too heavily on this opinion as it will often be incorrect. I am sure that if I had let this go on any longer I would have had a flurry of replies saying that my piece is a fake. In fact, the last post makes an interesting comment about the A in Aldrin looking wrong. I agree, it does now I look at it! However - unless Buzz got someone else to sign the books being sold at this event - this signature can be guaranteed 100% genuine! OK, now here comes the abuse! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-28-2009 04:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by nakedlunch:
About 70% of the posts on this site are from people asking if their purchased (or about to purchase) signatures are real...
Just a point of fact, even if you assumed 90% of the Opinions & Advice topics were as you described (which would be high) than even 7% would be inflating the frequency of such posts on this site. quote:
However, people should not reply too heavily on this opinion as it will often be incorrect.
You only have one data point (your own example). How can you assert then that opinions will often be incorrect? |
4tr
Member Posts: 129
From: Scituate, Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 08-28-2009 05:23 PM
The thing is that it IS a bad signature. True, Buzz might have signed the book, and if you saw him do it you could be confident of its authenticity for as long as you owned the book. The next owner, on the other hand, could never be sure. Isn't this somewhat similar to what makes so many of Bill Anders' signatures suspect -- although in his case the atypical styles are deliberate. |
nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 05:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 4tr:
The thing is that it IS a bad signature.
"Bad signature"! How can it be bad? It clearly reads 'Buzz Aldrin' It is his signature, it is how he signs his name! He picked up a pen and signed his name! It is clearly legable, not smudged or tainted in any way.Does he have to conform to a standardised squiggle? Go on, sign your own name 20 or 30 times and see if everyone looks the same! Or are you saying that only Buzz Aldrin signatures are worth anything as long as they look like Buzz Aldrin signatures - which is surely an oxymoron, paradox or something of the like! Perhaps then Buzz should be sacked and made to bring in a professional who is better at signing Buzz Aldrin autographs than himself! Reminds me a bit of the story of Charlie Chaplin who came 2nd to someone else in a Charlie Chaplin lookalike competition! This, to me, shows how ridiculous autograph hunting can be! For me, I met the guy (later, after the talk) and got his signature. Surely that is all that matters? I could not give a toss if someone would not want to buy it later because it did not "look" like a Buzz signature! And in any case, they would be wrong, wouldn't they! |
4tr
Member Posts: 129
From: Scituate, Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 08-28-2009 06:12 PM
I don't think autograph hunting is ridiculous, but it is full of pitfalls. You had a great experience, have an autograph you know is 100% authentic, and avoided one of those pitfalls. And if in the future a collector decided not to purchase that or a similar autograph because he thought it was bad, he would indeed be wrong. He just wouldn't know it. Sadly, the situation is such that erring on the side of caution when purchasing autographs from an intermediate source is just the prudent thing to do.
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Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 08-28-2009 06:17 PM
If you say the Aldrin is good from a personal book signing, fine, but overall his signature characteristics do not match 100s and 100s of other Aldrin samples throughout the last few decades. My post above does have an error, and I do apologize for it, as I usually -- almost always -- indicate such postings are only my own opinion and nothing more. But -- in the long run -- if this Aldrin sig was listed for auction or purchase years from now with no background or provenance of how it was obtained, I would still not want to have it in my own collection...even with an "in person" label of how it was gotten. For me personally, I just don't care for it either way! Of course, of what I should have said in my earlier post here, "just my own opinion" as I have always stressed there are no true experts or authorities in the space arena. |
nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 06:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 4tr:
Sadly, the situation is such that erring on the side of caution when purchasing autographs from an intermediate source is just the prudent thing to do.
I understand that, but then surely there are many people out there who not only are passing up genuine autographs as "fake" but also buying fake autographs under the impression that they are "genuine" - just because they look like the real thing. It ccould almost be that if practiced enough a forger could make his signatures more valuble and sought after than the real deal! There must be plenty of forged Buzz signatures which look more genuine than the one I have sought! |
nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 06:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
For me personally, I just don't care for it either way!
But Ken, this proves my point! You would not want to have a genuine autograph. That then must surely be because you could not sell it on! If you met Buzz tomorrow and asked him for his autograph, would you not keep it in your collection just because it did not look like his own!I reckon that with lots of practice I could learn to forge many signatures and sell them as genuine. In fact, I reckon that many collectors on this site will have forgeries in their collection. And what this little experiment suggests is that the ones you think are fake, probably are not and vise versa! |
randyc
Member Posts: 779
From: Chandler, AZ USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 08-28-2009 06:33 PM
Okay, so your point is that sometimes even 'genuine' signatures are identified as 'atypical' or forgeries and thus an autograph collector may not buy it, thereby passing up a good signature. So what? I don't think any of the experienced collectors has every said that every 'atypical' signature is a forgery. However, the vast majority of 'atypical' signatures are indeed forgeries, and frankly, and I speak as a collector who has been collecting astronaut signatures for over 30 years, I would rather not purchase an 'atypical' signature because the odds are that it is a forgery. There are enough 'typical' signatures available for every astronaut, so why buy one that doesn't look 'right'. In autograph collecting, just like in a lot of other areas of life, perception is more important than reality, and if the perception is that an autograph is 'not right' or 'atypical' the collector will always wonder. And why should one create that kind on angst for themselves?One more point: No offense, but you state that the signature is genuine. Since we're all a bunch of nice guys and gals on this website we believe you. That being said, you're a new member, and thus none of us know you, so frankly we don't know how knowledgable you are on the subject nor your 'credentials'. And your statements about being able to create passable forgeries isn't a good way to start your membership on collectSPACE. |
nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 06:47 PM
True, but I don't reckon that even experinced collectors with 30 years of experince can truly tell if they have genuine signatures unless they obtained that signature themselves or know the person who did obtain it. Surely there must be at least 10 or 20 people world-wide who have mastered Buzz's autograph to a standard indistinguishable to the real thing and are selling them off on ebay as we speak. If they can then surely it does not matter how experinced you are, you are likly to get stung at some point and you cannot ever be 100% certain as to the authenticity of any of your items! - unless sourced directly, of course. |
randyc
Member Posts: 779
From: Chandler, AZ USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 08-28-2009 06:53 PM
Okay, I'll ask again, what's your point? You're simply stating the obvious: I think that everybody who collects signatures agrees that the only 100% foolproof way of guaranteeing that a signature is genuine is to see the item signed in person. And I also think that most of us agree that if we bought signed items there is a chance that at least one of them may not be genuine. You're not telling us something that we don't already know. |
nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 06:57 PM
Well, my knowledge on space signatures is extremely limited. I don't wish to start collecting autographs (although I would get one if I met the person) and I certanly would not wish to ever start forging and selling signatures! I am also happy to scan my other signed book and ticket stub for the London Southbank event if anyone wants proof (though it would neither add or subtract from my argument). However, I was only trying to make a point and I still think it is valid. Unless you have sourced an autograpgh yourself (or know and trust the person who has) no one can guarantee it's authenticity. And unless you can, what is the point of buying and selling autographs? This is my point! Added note - by the way, I have looked at a number of other Buzz signatures and my one does not look particularly different from any of them. Or rather, all of them vary in many different ways - sometimes a letter is curved, other times it is more rigid, soemtimes he joins up certain letters, other times he does not. Beats me how Buzz Aldrin himself would be able to tell what is genuine or not! |
randyc
Member Posts: 779
From: Chandler, AZ USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 08-28-2009 07:10 PM
Here's my answer to 'what is the point of collecting autographs?' even if you can't see the item being signed or absolutely, positively, 100% trust the individual that you're buying it from. There are ways of educating yourself by looking at known genuine autographs and noting certain characteristics that are common among the known genuine examples. Is it foolproof? Maybe not, but you can get pretty good at spotting genuine from forged examples. Remember, there are handwriting 'experts' in law enforcement agencies whose expertise is utilized in courts of law. They are also not infallible, but there is enough 'science' behind handwriting analysis that the courts recognize the expertise and use the opinions of these 'experts' when rendering decisions. |
nakedlunch
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posted 08-28-2009 07:16 PM
Yes, but these opinions go on more than two words. It is far easier to tell if a letter is genuine but less so on a two word signature. It's also a lot easier to practice and succeed in forging an autograph than to try and replicate someone's whole handwriting style. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-28-2009 07:37 PM
As this topic goes against the spirit of this forum (to offer honest advice), and violates the rules of the board ("you will not use this board to post any material which is knowingly false"), and because, with a space shuttle launching tonight, I do not have the time to moderate this discussion, this thread is being closed. If you feel it should be re-opened later you can describe your reasons in an e-mail to contact@collectspace.com. |
Topic Closed
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