posted 03-02-2008 07:14 AM               

So e-mailed them for closer picture than shown on website and when it came back I e-mailed it to a very well known space autograph authentication expert and they came back as 100% fake, so I e-mailed shop and they came up with some story saying it was from their aunt's or uncle's collection, blah, blah. And then I saw AFTAL dealer on their website, which I had not heard of, so googled that and saw he was on the pending list as a dealer and it was the new UK version of UACC. So contacted Garry King as he is apart of AFTAL and he came back very fast asking where it was, etc. and that the AFTAL board were having a meeting next day but his main worry was that the shop had a AFTAL sign outside and yes it was a fake. And I questioned the others as they were cut autograph for very famous people but when you looked at them in the flesh they looked new, if you know what I mean, and he agreed they looked bad. And in between e-mails with King and the shop, the Armstrong was taken down and I asked King what will AFTAL do as his name was on their pending list, etc. and if people where looking for a genuine dealer they would really think they were a good dealer and buy from him and as it shows here on their AFTAL site, they are there to help, etc. Look at their forum: it states the AFTAL is working in co-operation with the police force and The Trading Standards Authority to stamp out fakes and forgeries.

posted 03-02-2008 08:29 AM               

It always alarms me when a dealer cannot be bothered to put up a decent scan of the item on their website. Do they expect you to part with £2k on trust?

Sadly I've seen fake Armstrongs at several autograph shows including Autographica and whilst you cannot reasonably expect a show organiser to police everything, you would expect them to take action if they and the dealer were members of a regulating body.

Failure to do so only diminishes the value of these bodies in the eyes of the very people they are supposed to protect... the buyers. Or are they?

posted 03-02-2008 11:27 AM               

"It is our policy that all items are made in-house by our craftsmen. We never use outside contractors to produce our products as is the case with some of our competitors"

posted 03-03-2008 03:00 AM              

The board meets around every 6 weeks, and it does sometimes take time to decide on aplications. But the board will decide, and will not be pushed into decisions by those on the outside who have no understanding of how we work etc.

I will certainly not get into any dsicussions as to how we decide, or what we have discussed between us, or any communication we may have had between ourselves or anyone who has APPLIED to join AFTAL.

Suffice to say that whne we have made a decision, which may mean a visit to the persons premises, or further communictaion between the board and the applicant, then we will either approve or refuse the application, but not before.

AFTAL are happy to accept and look into any compliants about any member or applicant, but those compliants will be looked into correctly and fairly, without judgement simply by looking at an image on a website. Posting messages on websites like this does no good at all, and only means i or someone else has to spend precious time answering questions, when they could be doing something more productive.

Those that know me, will i am sure, confirm that do answer my mails, but as before, i will not go into details regards any complain i amy recieve about AFTAL. If you have not received an answer, then perhaps its because i have already answered the question before!

I hope that clears that up.

posted 03-03-2008 06:14 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by garymilgrom:
What is a cut signature or cut-style of autograph?

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posted 03-03-2008 07:47 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by AUTOGRAPHICA:
As i stated before, Legends and Icons are not AFTAL members, and we will deal with this in our own way, in our own time, and will not be pressured by anyone, especially when they start moaning about it to forums like this.

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AFTAL, if no-one knows what it stands for is Autograph Fair Trade Association Limited, yes that is correct and if you look on AFTAL's website:

quote:

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Many of you reading this will already be the victims of memorabilia fraud.

Ask yourself, 'How do I know the autograph I bought is genuine?'

Were you there when it was signed?

If not, what solid proof do you have that it is authentic?

THIS IS WHERE WE CAN HELP!

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Just take your time AFTAL and Garry, its only been approx four months and just look on Icons website and on what they have sold since I told you and think of how many people are hanging photographs with scribbles on, on their wall. Not every knows how AFTAL works and when looking on the website do not take all the information in - there are still gullible people about or do you disagree Garry. Please answer questions - Who would trust AFTAL as a governing body to vet companies after reading this? - not me, why because they don't even look at their members or probation applicants websites. I would have thought AFTAL would have visited Icons more after they knew he was dealing fakes but no it was only because I by chance again visited Icons website was this brought up for a second time that I felt people should know of this company - do you agree Gary- PLEASE answer. Please answer all my questions. Thank you.

posted 03-03-2008 08:42 AM              

Legends and Icons are not members of AFTAL, so please do not keep suggesting that they are.

They have applied to join, and we put them on the Probation list only, that allows people like yourslef to tell us of any problems that you may have, which you did.

We then deal with them accordingly. The complaint you made has been acted upon. They did have say on their website they were members, does it say that now? no! You said they sell fakes, and we have looked into this, but we don't come to conclusions based entirely on what we see on a website.

Again, i am not going to tell you what was decided or what action we have or will take, that is for us to know, but it has been dealt with.

I did answer your mails, but as before i will not be pushed, and neither will i reapeat my answers to you again.

posted 03-03-2008 09:19 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by AUTOGRAPHICA:
These kind of probelms are not just for AFTAL or UACC etc to deal with. It is for everyone to do something about. Other than moaning about it on this or any other website or forum, have you taken any time to report the items to TS or similar as i suggested to you? i very much doubt it.

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posted 03-03-2008 10:18 AM              

FYI any action we have taken or will take is not down to your complaints on this or any other site. AFTAL will act in ways which we deem correct, and that does not mean that we have to tell you exactly what we are doing at any one time.

We have a number of cases we are acting on at this moment, but if we tell everyone on a website or forum what we are doing, then it would only affect what we are doing.

My point about others doing something, is that most do nothing. I have lost count of the number of complaints i receive from people about items they have bought which are fake, but what do they do about it? i tell you, all they do is complain to me! I am not god, i do not run ebay, nor am i some kind of autograph police. If everyone did their bit, then all our lives would be much easier.

I don't have a problem with anyone posting on here about fake items. What i do have a problem with is people complaining that i should be doing something about it! The Armstrong is fake. I am not going into details as to what we have done about it, its not that simple, and its not for those on here to know. But be assured, that we have done something.

Scott, you are right, and i am sure you will agree with what i have already said. From what you have said, you have acted yourself before, but i am sure that you would not send as many emails as Keith as demanding action in the way he has.

Keith. For the last time. Legends are not AFTAL members. The Armstrong is a fake, and AFTAL have taken the action we deem correct, but we are not telling you or anyone else what that is. OK?

posted 03-03-2008 10:40 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by AUTOGRAPHICA:
I have now answered all the questions, and will not be posting any more on this subject.

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quote:

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AFTAL working in co-operation with the Police Force & The Trading Standards Authority to stamp out Fakes & Forgeries.

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posted 03-03-2008 11:01 AM               

I do understand and applaud Keith's desire to protect collectors but I am concerned that by targeting AFTAL (and specifically Garry King), we might be discouraging a group from trying to do well rather than focusing the criticism on the dealer who is obviously not doing the same.

L&I does not appear to identify itself as an AFTAL member (at least not based on the links provided in this thread). It praises the organization and suggests that they abide by their rules, but they do not appear (likely intensionally) to claim they are a member.

AFTAL does not list L&I as a member. Rather, they are listed as on probation, which is clearly not an endorsement. Generally, "probation" has a negative connotation.

But even if one were to look past that, AFTAL is under no obligation to share how their probation process works and no amount of public pressure will necessarily change that. If you don't like the AFTAL's policies, don't join (or better yet, join, become active in their society, and encourage change from within).

Lastly, unless I am mistaken, it was L&I that was at fault, not AFTAL, in offering the forged Armstrong autograph. Yet it appears that some are more concerned with holding AFTAL to a higher standard then they do L&I.

posted 03-03-2008 11:42 AM               

IMHO to say that L&I are honestly declaring that they are not members of AFTAL is to stretch credulity to the limit. Their statement about "abiding by the rules of AFTAL" is clearly designed to give COLLECTORS the impression that they are buying from a safe and implicitly approved source (which they are not).

AFTAL is not directly responsible for the actions of L&I, but it should, in the interest of collectors (and its own standing) ensure that all reference to AFTAL is removed from the website.

Again, I would caution any collector against reading too much into the membership of any of these TRADE bodies - no matter how individually reputable some of the people involved are. Caveat emptor - semper!

posted 03-03-2008 11:52 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
Their statement about "abiding by the rules of AFTAL" is clearly designed to give COLLECTORS the impression that they are buying from a safe and implicitly approved source (which they are not).

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posted 03-03-2008 12:21 PM               

See's website and how it places it's association with AFTAL and yes it do not say it's a member but in a aroundabout way links itself very close to AFTAL and as I stated when you just look at AFTAL's site and click onto members and scroll down there they are and as Robert states it does in our eyes have a negative connotation being on probation. But not everyone will understand this/ connect to if they are not on the ball- hope that is a right way to say it and say hey they must be OK as they would not dare to apply if they were selling bad stuff etc and go ahead and buys the item. Garry states that the new dealers are on the list so people can e.mail AFTAL if they have or had any problems with them but it does not state it on their webpage at all. I contacted Garry in oct 2007 and all that really happened was the Armstrong was taken off the dealers website. Garry was aware of this and said the Armstrong was a fake and that the other items looked bad too (he was the person who told me the term cut autographs- I had not heard of this before). If I was AFTAL and they did have a meeting the next day, I would have said yes Armstrong bad and other items do not look good and there is big money involved as many of their items are priced in the thousands, lets remove them from the AFTAL listing for now, look into this more before relisting them as on probation and ask L&I not to associate their store via their website to AFTAL for the moment. It does not take much to just remove a name from a website. This did not happen and by the looks was forgotten as it was only me by chance looking back on the dealers website I saw it was back on and AFTAL still showing them on their listing. Maybe the best way as to think how I am thinking is in away but NOT (hoping not to get sued) guilt by association. That it really what I am trying to say and AFTAL state so many things on their site that it gives the impression everything is safe.

posted 03-03-2008 01:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
That was the point I was trying to make (e.g. "likely intensionally") but perhaps I was too subtle.

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Yes, sorry Robert, I missed that one!

Paul

posted 03-03-2008 02:42 PM               

I didn't think Keith was trying to say that the dealers were members of the association, but rather that they were seeking to give the impression of that, as Robert noted.

posted 03-03-2008 04:28 PM               

Wish someone would ask for other larger images of their other history makers items etc who knows how to confirm if genuine or not.

posted 03-03-2008 08:34 PM               

I received an email from you, and replied asking what you were saying as it made little sense.

I'm not quite sure why you emailed me also?

posted 03-03-2008 08:39 PM               

Garry King has led the way in England with AFTAL and bringing many cases to Trading Standards. Fortunately in the UK they have laws regarding these things and people to enforce them. While technically in the US we do also, getting someone prosecuted for a forged signed item is horribly difficult.

Not to mention enlisting an agency to even consider getting involved. It's not impossible, but not easy.

Garry has done well in Europe, for the hobby and profession in general, and the UACC. I cannot stress this enough.

posted 03-04-2008 01:29 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by albatron:
I received an email from you, and replied asking what you were saying as it made little sense. I'm not quite sure why you emailed me also?

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posted 03-04-2008 02:09 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by albatron:
Not many people have looked out for the little guy to the degree Garry has done.

---

Garry has done so well!! So, would you say he and AFTAL have done a "good job" on the above? Where they were aware of a dealer selling thousands of dollars of bogus items which had linked themselves to AFTAL and AFTAL linking themselves to them via their website and did nothing and left for months, would you be so kind as to answer that please? Thank you in advance.

In my eyes I see AFTAL as just a group of dealers who want to be seen as the leaders in the field of autograph trading in the UK and for people to use them to trade with and turning it into a kind of franchise and them cherry picking only the people they want as I know of one person who was turned down and they asked AFTAL to show him what was wrong with his stock, etc. but they just came back with another reason for turning him down and that was two months ago he applied and refused-L&I is months ago but just left. Garry King showed his true colours by when replying and in no two ways to say it lied that I was a serial complainer and was trying to make me look like I was some kind of bad guy so it would deflect that a poor useless service AFTAL had given - have a look at his quote:

"I get emails from serial complainers like Barber very day, but none of them actually do anything about it themselves..."

100% rubbish.

If the UACC could not control this on going problem and I think Garry is/was a member why by just changing the name to AFTAL in the UK and it is a limited company make any difference because it clearly has not here. Please tell me if I am wrong, I do not mind admitting being wrong unlike some people.

I am sure Garry has done well in Europe and just maybe and I may be wrong Garry likes the glory of the things he does more for himself to shine out and it must bring the punters in, than just doing it for the little guy.

By the way Garry if you are reading, I see one of your top AFTAL dealers on the list who sold me a fake autograph sometime ago, sorry that was I lie I traded my genuine items for a fake.

posted 03-04-2008 05:54 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ColinBurgess:
This really is becoming a very tiresome and repetitive tirade.

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