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Author Topic:   Apollo 1 death certificates
mmmoo
Member

Posts: 551
From: London, England
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-20-2006 07:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mmmoo   Click Here to Email mmmoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just stumbled across this listing on ebay

Apart from being in bad taste, and over priced. Is it even legal to be selling these? Presuming they are the original certificates...


Mike Constantine

micropooz
Member

Posts: 1512
From: Washington, DC, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 11-20-2006 08:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for micropooz   Click Here to Email micropooz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know about the legality, but this guy has only 11 sales on eBay, mostly selling anchor bolts. If I even wanted to bid on the certificates (and I don't) I would certainly hesitate on bidding $10k on something so far outside of this guy's experience base.

spaceman
Member

Posts: 1104
From: Walsall, West Midlands, UK
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 11-20-2006 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman   Click Here to Email spaceman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi
each to his own I suppose, I certainly am not into collecting this kind of thing..but someone has to be.Whether trading such an item on ebay is the way to go I just don't know.
Nick
Spaceman.

Steve Procter
Member

Posts: 1031
From: Leeds, Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 11-20-2006 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Procter   Click Here to Email Steve Procter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Apart from the 'taste' considerations, surely it can't be legal to sell clinical records!

Here in the UK it is possible to purchase copies of birth, marriage and death certificates from the registrars/records offices. These are the source of much information for family history research.

These items seem to be far more than this

Steve

Apollo-Soyuz
Member

Posts: 1205
From: Shady Side, Md
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 11-20-2006 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Apollo-Soyuz   Click Here to Email Apollo-Soyuz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I emailed the seller and here is his reply. "NASA has said that they are OK to sell, buy or give away. They are classified as historical documents."

------------------
John Macco
Vice President
Space Unit
Shady Side, Md.

randy
Member

Posts: 2176
From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-20-2006 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randy   Click Here to Email randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a new low in bad taste, even for Ebay.

apollo11lem5
Member

Posts: 528
From: Seminole, Florida, United States
Registered: May 2000

posted 11-20-2006 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for apollo11lem5   Click Here to Email apollo11lem5     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello All....I agree that this is in bad taste. The amazingly high STARTING price of 10K is below the reserve . One can only wonder what meets the sellers reserve.
BTW....I did spot this Ebay listing a few days ago and brought it to the attention of the deceased astronauts family members so that they are not blind sided by this and so they are aware of the listing . Many of you are aware of my friendship with some of the family members and I felt that they should be aware. Best To All....Donald

FutureAstronaut
Member

Posts: 372
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 11-20-2006 08:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FutureAstronaut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MAYBE NASA said it was okay, but did the families of Grisson, White and Chaffee say it was okay?

I never thought the world could be a place where people could profit from the tragic deaths of others.

------------------
Mike

ea757grrl
Member

Posts: 729
From: South Carolina
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 11-20-2006 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ea757grrl   Click Here to Email ea757grrl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just looked at the listing, and the guy says that due to the outcry, he's yanked the auction. He claims he never meant to offend anyone.

I never cease to be amazed at the ghoulish ways in which the Internet can be used. If you're a NA$CAR fan, you don't dare do a Google image search for Neil Bonnett, because somebody has posted his (and Rodney Orr's) autopsy photos on a website. The guy claimed it was for research purposes and as a matter of public interest (and also tried to get access to Dale Earnhardt's autopsy photos), but you really can't help thinking it's in awful poor taste regardless. Anybody who's ever seen even one autopsy photo knows what I mean.

jodie

[Edited by ea757grrl (November 20, 2006).]

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-20-2006 09:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The seller e-mailed collectSPACE as well. He says the auction was a means to draw out people with more information about the files and that the price and reserve was set as high as it was to avoid their selling. He apologized for being insensitive.

I suggested he donate the documents to an archive that will treat them with the respect and care they deserve, allowing access for researchers but not leering eyes. I provided the contact information for the JSC archivist. Hopefully, he will take my advice and these sensitive papers will soon be in the proper hands.

ea757grrl
Member

Posts: 729
From: South Carolina
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 11-20-2006 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ea757grrl   Click Here to Email ea757grrl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just got an e-mail from the seller as well, basically stating what Robert wrote above. While I don't want to quote in full without the guy's permission, he expresses remorse about what happened, and says he pulled the auction out of respect for those he has offended, and apologizes for what happened.

jodie

ea757grrl
Member

Posts: 729
From: South Carolina
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 11-21-2006 06:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ea757grrl   Click Here to Email ea757grrl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I got permission from the seller to post this, so I will share what he wrote to me:

"I am the one with the death cert's. First, please let me say one thing. My intentions were very honorable. I put these on Ebay as a way to learn more about these great historical documents. That is why the bid starts high with an even higher reserve. I never intended to sell these to the highest bidder. I have a lot of people emailing me and I have to be honest, they have been very mixed. I have been railed for wanting to make a profit and also been praised for wanting to get these out in the open. I am from a different era and did not appreciate the historical value associated with these great space pioneers. As I told one person tonight, I feel ashamed that I do not know more about these men. I was born at Patricks Air Force base and I should be more informed. In closing, please allow me to apologize for trivializing what these men stood for. As I stated earlier, my intentions are very honorable. I felt a need to defend myself, and hope that you will post this to your bulletin board in collectspace.com. Also, I have ended the auction in Ebay out of respect for you and the others that I have offended!!

Sincerely,
Chris"


I promised him I'd make no comment on it, just share it.

jodie

ejectr
Member

Posts: 1751
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-21-2006 08:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chris.....Now why don't you just join us on collect Space and let the group of people who may know more about what you have educate you with sincerity and honesty.

You made an honest mistake. Move on and join our crowd of the most knowledgeable space fans in existance...active and lurking.

[Edited by ejectr (November 21, 2006).]

albatron@aol.com
New Member

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posted 11-21-2006 08:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron@aol.com   Click Here to Email albatron@aol.com     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually that's a pretty weak rationalization and I don't buy a penny of it.

That is the older style of death certificate in Florida. To get a copy you have to be a family member or have a legitimate reason to get one. They are also photocopies, and do not appear to be an original - it's very evident - or even earlier, a mimeograph copy. A retyped version may have gone to NASA, USAF and the Medical Examiner, but everyone else got photocopies.

So IF these are the original issued to whomever, then there may be possible legal action involving this. Ergo how did he obtain them?

In the late 80's or early 90's, the State of Florida began issuing a newer style birth & death certificate that is pretty much an original for each copy. Computer generated of course, and it is impossible to discern from an original.

As for autopsy photo's, Dale Earnharts wreck was the catalyst for a law in Florida that prhoibits autopsy photo's from being given out OR posted in any way, shape or form.

A law I fully agree with, but needs to be amended for training and legitimate purposes. In some aspects of training my company prduces, we too are even prohibited from using any. And we train death investigation courses of many types.

But that's a small price to pay to keep unscrupulous types from getting their hands on them. However even if they obtain them illegally and post them or try and sell them they are in violation of Florida law, and since they originated in Florida, they will be prosecuted.

All times are CT (US)

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