posted 12-12-2003 12:38 PM               

has been discussed here before, so as to alert any potential bidders to something I missed before, but I believe to be worthy of special mention.

In his first post on collectSPACE regarding the sale of this flag, the seller, Mr. Stulman, stated:
"I bought this flag for $10,000 in 1997. I bought it from a rare book dealer who had just aquired it from Mr. Webb's Estate Sale. It hung in my office 5 years till I closed my company and started my ebay business".

In a later post, Mr. Stulman's story changes to the following:
"Once again, I am the seller of this flag and I did buy it from biblioctopus".
(After astute collectSPACE member 072069 tracked down that this flag was offered by biblioctopus in 2002 for $4500.00.)

I'm no Columbo, but it seems to me that unless this gentleman first purchased this flag for $10,000 in 1997, then sold it to someone in 2002, and then bought it back again from biblioctopus in that same year, we are dealing with a seller who, to put it charitably, has a bit of trouble with getting the facts straight.

-chet

posted 12-12-2003 03:07 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Keith Barber:
Quote-I bought it from a rare book dealer who had just aquired it from Mr. Webb's Estate Sale-is that biblioctopus.If so he has not changed his story !! or am I wrong ?

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No, he stated clearly that he purchased it originally in 1997.

The actuality here is, I think, not really very sinister, aside from Mr. Stulman having made untrue statements regarding the sale of an expensive item. I believe Mr. Stulman picked up this flag from Biblioctopus in 2002 at a pretty good price, and, wanting to sell it for a price closer to $10,000, simply made up the story about having acquired it for that price in 1997. In a way, you might say his tactic, if I surmised it correctly, is a reflection of the type of mindset that is all too prevalent among most people, not just collectors, and certainly not unique to the members of collectSPACE either, although the issue has been raised here before. I speak of the tendency of bidders to judge a piece and/or its seller by the price it was previously acquired for, rather than for what it might be worth.

Had Mr. Stulman been straightforward with his story about when/where he obtained this piece, I'd have no problem with his wanting $10,000, $12,000 or even $50,000, as I think the price HE managed to obtain it for is irrelevant, in that it's none of my or anyone else's business. But Mr. Stulman felt uncomfortable, I believe, in being perceived as trying to spin this flag for a very handsome profit, hence his story that he paid $10,000 for it in 1997. Frankly, I think his mistake was being fearful of being "outed" as a flat out capitalist; if that was the case, I don't know why in the world he decided to publicly declare a value he obtained the flag for.

I do think the flag is authentic, and I do think Mr. Stulman will find some way to get the price he wants for it, even though that might ultimately take some "unkosher" turns.
I guess the main problem I have with Mr. Stulman is that it becomes harder to trust someone in a transaction involving thousands of dollars when he's demonstrated a penchant for storytelling and, IMHO, has shown poor judgement in that he told such a flimsy and unecessarily detailed (disclosing prices paid) story, when all he had to do was list it properly with the right reserve.

-chet

posted 12-12-2003 05:43 PM               

I hope that you're not implying that it is wrong to be a "capitalist". I think being a "capitalist" is fine and people should make the most they can (heck, I wish I had sold some of my stuff a few years ago). However, this is with the caveat of being ethical.

The problem with the dealer in question is whether he is lying. If he is lying about the date and price he acquired the piece, he is in fact misrepresenting the item for financial gain. Therefore, regardless of whether or not the piece is real, the seller is still trying to cheat the buyer.

I believe that with the items we are all interested in, especially in more expensive ones, we have to feel we can trust the seller. I remember tons of angry protests against Aurora because they let a few autopens slip through and had a couple of questionable items. Although they were trying their best with a majority of great items which nobody refuted, people were outraged and seemed to want to boycot the auction because of their "questionable ethics".

posted 12-13-2003 06:33 AM               

Whenever I fancy weeping tears of frustration I take a leaf through Robert's coverage of the hammer prices for Superior auctions in the late 90s.

I don't have feelings one way or the other about this flag but it's definitely a red herring to draw conclusions from it's price circa '98.