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  EB: Armstrong, Aldrin autographs, beta cloth, etc.

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Author Topic:   EB: Armstrong, Aldrin autographs, beta cloth, etc.
Frederic Janik
Member

Posts: 312
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 02-03-2014 03:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frederic Janik   Click Here to Email Frederic Janik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just listed on eBay 12 cool items from my collection: Armstrong Sieger cover, Buzz visor shot, very nice inscribed beta cloth patches and Apollo 12 comic.

Thanks for looking — Frederic (seller name fxj)

albatron
Member

Posts: 2159
From: Stuart, Florida, USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 02-03-2014 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron   Click Here to Email albatron     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
VERY nice stuff Fred, very good prices too. That Apollo 13 cover is especially desirable as it has a low number.

Good luck!

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 1939
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-03-2014 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, that's my hand-writing on the back of the special Haise/Apollo 13 collection anniversary cover. It was a great project that involved Haise, myself, and two other fine folks with most of the monies received for their purchases being donated to astronaut-related charities.

But Frederic, if you don't mind me asking, where did you obtain the crew signed Apollo 15 Swanson launch-day cover?

Frederic Janik
Member

Posts: 312
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 02-04-2014 12:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frederic Janik   Click Here to Email Frederic Janik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Al and Ken for your comments.

The Apollo 15 cover was purchased from one of the established online dealers about 15 years ago. Unfortunately I couldn't find in my e-mail archive the particular trade.

I remember I bought it signed by Irwin and completed Scott and Worden myself but this can't be right as the dates don't match with Scott's first trip to Autographica.

Is there any serious concern over it? I've had it so long and nobody so far expressed any doubts; of course I respect your knowledge and experience in the field.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 394
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-04-2014 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you are asking for input, the Irwin and Scott are questionable in my opinion.

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 1939
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-04-2014 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve (and Frederic), My thoughts as well as I don't like the Irwin and Scott, but Worden looks okay to me.

Most noticeable is the "J" of Irwin's first name and the "D" of Scott's first name, in addition to a few other concerns. That's why I asked Frederic how he acquired the autographs on the Swanson launch-day cover as I had similar concerns as well.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3621
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 02-04-2014 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, I concur with the opinions that the Irwin and Scott signatures on the Apollo 15 cover are not good.

Having said that, I also have some concerns over the Armstrong-signed stamp block that was just sold. While many of these stamp blocks contain authentic signatures, there have also been a fair number of these stamp blocks in circulation that have forgeries on them (since unsigned stamp blocks can be found). In that regard, they aren't always "sure-fire authentic" as advertised.

In my opinion, the signature on this stamp block is questionable and is a possible forgery. It doesn't appear to match with the signature styles commonly seen on the authentic versions. At the very least, I would recommend obtaining a second opinion before finalizing the sale.

Frederic Janik
Member

Posts: 312
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 02-04-2014 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frederic Janik   Click Here to Email Frederic Janik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey guys, thanks for the opinions.

I will remove the Apollo 15 cover even though I personally never doubted the signatures. Unfortunately I have no trace of the purchase which was made 15 years ago.

I however am quite offended at Mark's comments regarding the stamp block, which in my opinion is a superb example of these, and was purchased directly from Florian Noller who is probably the leading expert in the world and the most reliable source when it comes to Sieger stamp blocks.

I understand that you guys are trying to help and I commend this — but this feels sometimes like it is taking an extreme turn where even in-person signatures would be questioned.

I note that Ken says "the Worden looks okay to me" when there is a certificate showing to all that it comes from Worden's official signing.

albatron
Member

Posts: 2159
From: Stuart, Florida, USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 02-04-2014 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron   Click Here to Email albatron     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's correct Fred, I handled that as a mail in for you while I was still working for Worden. Further I took it to the Air & Space show we put on, and added Scott there.

Frederic Janik
Member

Posts: 312
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 02-04-2014 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frederic Janik   Click Here to Email Frederic Janik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To add to the discussion for those that don't know me, I have been in this hobby for 20 years now and have never been associated with any issue around fakes.

Also, I have met nearly everyone who has been active in this thread, including Al, Ken and Mark.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 394
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-04-2014 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think anyone is implying anyone else is KNOWINGLY offering suspect material.

I have respect for Marc, Fred, Al, Ken and Flo and consider all of them attributes to the hobby.

That said, reasonable and honest people can disagree. I typically try to stay out of matters like this precisely because the discussions become “personalized” instead of objective analysis of the signature. In my experience, it is best to not name the source of the autograph, because then it turns into a much more delicate matter and has a chilling effect on open discussion.

For what it is worth, I would offer an opinion publicly or privately on the Armstrong if you would like. The downside is, now that the discussion has been “personalized,” no matter what my opinion, it will be “going against” someone else.

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 1939
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-04-2014 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Appreciate the further replies, Frederic (and others on this thread), but please understand it was never my intention to associate you — in any possible way — to handling or being associated with "fake" signatures, which by the way, is only my opinion based on nearly half-a-century of aerospace autograph collecting, studies, and research.

I also do not believe there is a single person or source that can be determined the "leading expert in the world" in the space autograph and memorabilia arena for many reasons, but that would involve another chapter to write, and now is not the time nor place to do so.

I would point out, however, that perhaps our own Robert Pearlman of cS can be credited as a, or "the," leading website source of aerospace memorabilia collecting in just about all space categories with overtones in aerospace history and education as well.

But since the items were listed on eBay for sale, Frederic, I just wanted to make a simple inquiry as to the origin of the Apollo 15 lot, if known in the first place.

My further remarks about the Irwin and Scott signatures, once again, were only out of genuine concern based on my sole opinion. Never did I mean any disrespect or any negative image of your association with astronaut autographs whatsoever.

Perhaps though I should apologize for writing, "the Worden looks okay to me," as I do not want to come across as any kind of authoritative figure or source — besides — I was never asked an opinion, in the first place, about the authenticity of the signed Apollo 15 postal cover.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3621
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 02-04-2014 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Frederic Janik:
I however am quite offended at Mark's comments regarding the stamp block, which in my opinion is a superb example of these, and was purchased directly from Florian Noller who is probably the leading expert in the world and the most reliable source when it comes to Sieger stamp blocks.

I hope you'll believe me Frederic when I say that no offense was intended by my posting and that I didn't imply that you were knowingly selling forged items. From what I know of you, I don't believe that you would do that.

However, I still believe the stamp block has a suspect signature and it's plausible that it has fooled several people, Florian included. Certainly, we should remember that people aren't immune to making mistakes...myself included. That's why I suggested that a second look be taken at this piece before the sale is finalized.

I see that Steve has offered to share an opinion on this Armstrong and, at a minimum, I would suggest taking him up on the offer.

spaceflori
Member

Posts: 1398
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-05-2014 01:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think the Armstrong Belgian stamp block is good, too, need to check with Frederic if he actually bought it from me as I don't have any reference to it.

If he got it from me I will refund it, of course, and ask Frederic to destroy it.

All times are CT (US)

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