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Author
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Topic: Wanted: Apollo cover flown to the moon
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cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 850
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 03-23-2006 07:02 AM
   
Does anybody of you have a cover flown to the moon on one of the Apollo missions to part?Best regards from Salzburg, Austria, Walter |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3881
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-23-2006 02:56 PM
If Apollo 15 flown covers are included, a Scott/Sieger cover(s) from crew-family members are available from time to time and possibly one of the Irwin "Shamrock" cachet covers that went into lunar orbit. Email me off list. |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1540
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 03-23-2006 11:51 PM
Contact Detlev van Ravenswaay, he has a Sieger Apollo 15 cover available.Florian |
MarylandSpace
Member Posts: 1438
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-24-2006 07:38 AM
I saw one in an upcoming on-line auction catalog this week, Apollo 15. Can't remember the auction house at the moment.Garry |
SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-24-2006 02:06 PM
The eight Shamrock covers that Irwin carried to the moon for family and friends all went in the Falcon to the surface of the moon, and were not just in lunar orbit.Steve |
micropooz
Member Posts: 1800
From: Washington, DC, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 03-24-2006 04:57 PM
Just got my Superior catalog. Lot 870 is one of the Apollo 15 flown covers (not the Shamrock cover, one of the insignia covers). Good luck! |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3881
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-24-2006 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SRB:
The eight Shamrock covers that Irwin carried to the moon for family and friends all went in the Falcon to the surface of the moon, and were not just in lunar orbit.
Why do you think the Irwin Shamrock imprinted covers were on the lunar surface? His 8 Shamrock cachet covers were part of his Command Module "Endeavour" PPK (S/N 1178). These were the only such cachet covers that were kept inside Irwin's CM-PPK along with a bunch of flags, silver and gold medallions, leaf clovers encased in plastic, various tie tacks, wedding bands, "Moon" stones, and even a water tooth pick! Of the 8 that were carried by Irwin to the moon, I've seen two of them and sold one for a family member(s). Seven of the covers contained no postal markings, but Col. Irwin did notate on each, "CARRIED TO THE MOON," and signed "Jim Irwin." After the flight Irwin retained 6 of the 8 envelopes. |
SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-26-2006 01:34 PM
What makes me think that they were on the surface of the moon is that Mrs. James Irwin wrote in a letter that the Shamrock postal covers were "flown to the surface of the Moon in the lunar module Falcon by my late husband, James Irwin." Based on this, I would say that these covers were kept with the Mission Patch covers that were also flown to the surface of the moon. Steve
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 53388
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-26-2006 01:36 PM
That would pose a problem then, as Jim Irwin writes in To Rule The Night that his LM PPK was accidentally left inside Falcon and collided back into the moon with the ascent stage. So how would any such covers make it back to Earth? |
Spaceraven
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 03-28-2006 11:24 AM
Hm, there is a collector in Stuttgart, Germany who has a Shamrock cover in his collection with a handwritten certification by Irwin on the cover that the cover was carried to the surface of the Moon. He met Irwin in Stuttgart, when he visited a stamp exhibition in the early 1980s. By the way, I am offering my Sieger Moon cover now on Astro-Auction. Detlev |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3881
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-28-2006 01:47 PM
That sounds very strange, but I would love to see a copy of that particular Shamrock cover. They were never inside LM-Falcon, and as Robert points out, both PPKs from Irwin and Scott were not transported back to CM-Endeavour for their return trip home to Earth. For Steve, I think Mrs. Irwin is mistaken and I'll have to give her a call soon. |
SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-29-2006 08:03 PM
Ken, Robert: You are both absolutely correct that Scott and Irwin left their PPK's behind in LM Falcon. This is documented in Irwin's very fine book and in the Final Stowage Report for Apollo 15. However, the story does not seem to end there. The Final Stowage Report shows that there were originally three PPK's stored in the Falcon, one of which was transferred back to the CM and is shown as returning to Earth. I suspect that this PPK is the source of the Lunar Surface Flown patches, flags, etc. that have been sold. David Scott has sold a few in recent Aurora auctions with his own COA. I suspect that Irwin had his shamrock covers in that PPK or somewhere else other than in his lost PPK. After all, six shamrock covers were intended as personal souvenirs for himself and his immediate family, so he may very well have wanted them flown with him to the surface rather than remain in the CM. Does this explanation make some sense to you?Steve |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3214
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 03-30-2006 04:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SRB:
The Final Stowage Report shows that there were originally three PPK's stored in the Falcon, one of which was transferred back to the CM and is shown as returning to Earth. I suspect that this PPK is the source of the Lunar Surface Flown patches, flags, etc. that have been sold. David Scott has sold a few in recent Aurora auctions with his own COA.
Was it the OFK (Official Flight Kit) that was transferred back to the CM? This would have had all the official NASA presentation stuff - flags of all nations etc - but nothing belonging to the crew.I understood that most of Scott's own surface-flown items were packed into the pockets of his EVA suit. Did Irwin carry anything like this in the pockets of his suit? |
SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-30-2006 09:40 AM
The Apollo Stowage lists refer to the item on the LM as "Kit, Personal Preference (PPK)". There is no reference to any OFK. However, you may be correct that some surface flown covers, flags, patches, etc. that Scott and Irwin kept were in their space suits.Steve |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 850
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 03-31-2006 05:15 PM
Ado Maier's shamrock cover bears an Apollo 15 twin stamp and a KSC machine cancellation SEP 29 1971 AM. Its notation says: "This envelope flew to the moon on Apollo 15 Jim Irwin"On a separate sheet Jim Irwin wrote: "I viewed a shamrock envelope that I took to the moon. 28 April 1981 Jim Irwin Apollo 15 This envelope in possession of Adolph Maier" |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3881
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-31-2006 10:01 PM
There were only five (5) astronaut-PPKs that went to the moon aboard Apollo 15. Each crewmember had his own stored in command ship Endeavour (CSM-112) throughout the entire voyage. Scott and Irwin also had a second PPK, one for each of them, stored inside their lunar landing ship Falcon (LM-10) that would later be transfered back to Endeavour on their return trip home. To my understanding, there was a single NASA-owned Official Flight Kit (OFK) which contained multiple items such as flags, patches, medallions and other memorabilia that would be presented to government officials, members of Congress, and others that the Space Agency had approved in advance. The OFK was stored in CM-Endeavour, not LM-Falcon, as was customary to NASA's policy during the Apollo program. We know, from what Irwin reported long ago, that both of Falcon PPKs were never transferred over to Endeavour before their landing craft was jettison while in lunar orbit. That would only leave three (3) of the CM-flown kits + the (1) OFK that came back from space. We also know that Scott had the Sieger covers in his spacesuit pocket during most of the journey. We also know that Scott and Irwin carried some items from Worden inside their individual LM-preference kits, Irwin said, which indicated Worden didn't have his own Falcon PPK as his other crewmates did. Of the total 643 philatelic envelopes that were carried on the lunar flight--all but the Sieger covers + two (2) others--were stored in the command module, including Irwin's 8 Shamrock cachet covers. Therefore, of the 643 envelopes that were flown on Apollo 15, only 400 of the flown envelopes actually went to the lunar surface inside LM-10. They were the 398 Sieger covers and two (2) that were owned by the U.S. Postal Service. Irwin reported after the flight that many personal items were "lost" when his and Scott's PPKs were destroyed, or forever lost, as Falcon, no longer needed, crashed into the moon with their kits. Of the 50 Shamrock covers that Irwin kept for himself, we know that eight (8) were stored aboard Endeavour and possibly, from what I was told, other envelopes (how many isn't known) from the 50 Shamrock batch were indeed a part of Irwin's LM-PPK contents that were never retrieved. Also never brought back to Earth were medallions, flags, cloverleafs, a wedding ring for a friend, a Marine flag owned by Walt Cunningham, and at least a hundred $2 bills. From my understanding, Irwin didn't carry mementoes like flags and patches stuffed away in any of his suit pockets. As for Scott, only he can answer such a question that perhaps would help us to better understand if any of his non-PPK souvenirs went to the moon's surface or not! Certainly, I would think, not too many...but only he would know for sure, hopefully. |
SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-01-2006 10:29 AM
Ken,I do not mean to be disrespectful since you are a true expect in this area and one of the few who were there when these events occurred and knew the people involved, but what is your source for stating that only two PPK's flew in the LM Falcon and there was not a third PPK aboard. As I said before, NASA's "Final Release" of the Apollo 15 Stowage List dated August 10, 1971 (three days after the recovery of Apollo 15) lists one PPK as returning that was aboard the LM. This stowage list states "This issue documents the as-flown configuration." If you believe the Final Stowage List is incorrect, it would be good to know why you think so. Having a PPK that returned to earth from the LM is not inconsistent with the known facts that Scott and Irwin lost PPKs when they were left behind in Faclon and not transferred back to the CM. As for your staement that the eight shamrock covers were in Irwin's PPK in the CM, is is based on your understanding that that only the PPFs in the CM returned or have you seen the list of items Irwin gave Slayton that showed where he stored the items he was taking on Apollo 15? The NASA September, 1972 press relase about the authorized and unauthorized postal items on Apollo 15 does not discuss where the authorized postal items, including the eight shamrock cover, were located. How do you know that Irwin did not have these covers with him in the Falcon? Could they have been in his space suit? Again, my continued questioning is not intended to be disrespectful, but I only seek to gain more certainty about these covers. Steve |
Dan Lorraine
Member Posts: 373
From: Cranston, R.I.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-01-2006 10:38 AM
Over the last few years I've seen a number of items being sold by Dave Scott as flown to the lunar surface ... so where were items like all of the mini-rover plates stored (which I believe that someone recently said 11 have been sold)? Thanks,
Dan |
mensax
Member Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 04-01-2006 11:12 AM
The mini-license plates were carried in a pocket of his space suit.Noah |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3881
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 04-01-2006 12:31 PM
Steve--Your post is appreciated, no disrespect taken, I assure you. But let me first point out that I am certainly not any kind of a "true expert" or anything related to such when it comes to a topic like this. Only the astronauts themselves, and only those that can recall such details, can shed more light on these subject areas. In regards to Irwin's Shamrock covers, Steve, the Irwin family gave me a copy of Jim's CM-PPK (S/N 1178 as was mentioned in an earlier post) contents--and sure enough--all eight of the Shamrock cachet covers were listed as #15 on the list of contents. In prior conversations with Col. Irwin, we did discuss his lunar flown covers, but most of which dealt with the Sieger covers. Some of those conversations did address, though rather vaguely, other flown mementoes. But Irwin would always say "as part of my PPK" and the "official flight kit" when referring to many of his personal and other flight souvenirs that made the lunar voyage with him. This is why, if I can recall correctly, that Irwin never had a flown lunar surface flag or patch presented or given to anyone. To my knowledge, Steve, all of his flag-presentations (after the mission and throughout his High Flight ministry) came from the OFK or from his personal CM-PPK! In trying to answer your question about a "third" flown LM-PPK, I think it might apply to an official postal envelope marking kit and possibly some others items that were included if such a third kit in fact existed. The information from my records indicates there were only 5 astronaut-PPKs that flew on Apollo 15 (3 stored on CM-112 and 2 on LM-10 at launch)! I have not seen anything otherwise from my Apollo Stowage List manuals and/or any other related documentation. Steve, if you don't mind, can I see see a copy of your "third" LM-PPK mention so that we can compare our records? Has Scott ever spoken about this to anyone that might be a cS.com reader? Perhaps Worden might know something and hopefully I can ask him soon. But, all along I have never questioned the number of flown PPKs, because it has always been my understanding (along with some astronaut conversations as well) that only 2 PPKs were stored on a LM. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3881
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 04-02-2006 07:44 AM
Perhaps a footnote should be added to the above post of mine; In reference to the on-board "Official Flight Kit," to my knowledge, the earlier Apollo flights did not contain such a kit by that name, however, I was always under the impression that there was a non-astronaut flight kit of somekind that did in fact contain numerous flags, patches, etc. that were used by NASA and other government purposes for official presentations and so on. I don't recall ever seeing a manifest mention or listing of such a flight kit, but I do know for certain that OFKs, by that name, did in fact fly from Apollo 16 onward. Irwin's earlier conversations with me, though vaguely, I do remember something about another onboard "official?" flight kit of somekind referred to even from Apollo 15. Let me ponder and research this further (perhaps Worden can help), or, if someone can ask Scott, it would be great to once-and-for-all settle this issue. Does anyone else have additional information that may help put this issue to rest? I'll also contact a few other folks "in-the-know" from that era that may help shed more light, but .... it may be difficult to "prove" anything solid without any strong supporting NASA documentation regarding a non-astronaut flight kit from Apollo 15 and beforehand.
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SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-02-2006 09:39 AM
Thank you for your detailed reply. If you email me your address off-line, I will send you several pages from the Final Stowage List. Maybe you can reconcile this document with the conventional wisdom about the number of PPKs that were flown on each mission.Steve |
VCampbell
Member Posts: 83
From: Bell Canyon CA USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-04-2006 03:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cosmos-walter:
doese anybody of you have a cover flown to the moon on one of the Apollo missions to part?
Walter: We will have an Apollo 15 Lunar Surface Cover in our April 8, 2006 Internet sale. Victoria Campbell
Aurora |
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