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Author
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Topic: Hanks to revisit Apollo?
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Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 08-19-2002 04:43 PM
   
Speaking of McDivitt, there may be some merit to the "one time CDR for Apollo". Back in 1969, Deke Slayton was seriously thinking of having Jim McDivitt fly as LMP for Apollo 13, with Shepard as CDR (and Roosa as CMP). And, if anyone had clout in the 2nd group of astronauts, you'd have to start with McDivitt. |
BLACKARROW
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posted 08-19-2002 06:21 PM
There were 2 obvious exceptions to the "rule" that no astronaut could command two Apollo flights: Tom Stafford (Apollo 10 and ASTP) and Pete Conrad (Apollo 12 and Skylab 2). I suppose it can be argued that in each case the second flight wasn't really an "Apollo" flight, but they certainly flew in Apollo spacecraft.Entering the realms of "what if?", there were two Apollo astronauts who might have commanded two CONSECUTIVE Moon-flights. The crew of Apollo 11 were told by Tom Paine, the then NASA Administrator, that if they got into trouble on the flight, they should take no chances, get home safely, and they would be allocated the very next flight to make a second attempt (see "Return to Earth" by Buzz Aldrin, p.217; and [more significantly] "Deke" by Deke Slayton, p.239). (So Neil Armstrong was offered two chances to become the first man on the Moon.Anyone ever hear Pete Conrad's opinion about that?) The other astronaut who was nearly a "double commander" was John Young, who served as Gene Cernan's back-up on Apollo 17. In "The Last Man on the Moon" at pp.287-288, Cernan describes how he ripped a tendon in his leg less than 2 months before launch and nearly blew his chances. I met John Young in Scotland last November and asked if he would have been keen to go back to the Moon as replacement commander of Apollo 17. He made it fairly clear that he would have done it, but he didn't really want to, and was relieved that Cernan recovered. |
Voskhod
Member Posts: 72
From: Oxfordshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-20-2002 07:37 AM
I think that you have got a good point Tom suggesting Stafford as the Cdr of Apollo 20 even if in Schirra's book it says that no astronaut would command an Apollo mission twice. He had not landed on the moon and was senior in the astronaut office. He stood in for Chief of the Astronaut Office when Shepard trained and flew Apollo 14.Deke says that he did not want to send poor Jack Swigert around the moon again. Jack was the original CMP before being replaced on ASTP by Brand. How about Apollo 20? CDR Stafford, LMP Lind, CMP ? possibly Swigert. Would he have turned down another trip to the moon if offered? |
OPOS
Member Posts: 200
From: Inverness, FL
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-21-2002 10:04 AM
Where is Harry Turtledove when we need him? Good point about Wally, although I think Mike Coillins said Wally's idea of spaceflight was going up and getting down as soon as possible so he could have a smoke. I wonder if others desire for long duration flight was affected by their Nicotine habit! Never underestimate the power of a cigarette! |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 08-21-2002 12:10 PM
I'm all for a little speculation; but even if we'd done Apollo 18, 19 and 20 (in what, Spring '74?), depressing as it is, we'd still not have gone back to the Moon by now. |
CPIA
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posted 08-21-2002 01:22 PM
This is good speculation, but has anybody seen the new book put out by Springer/Praxis Publishers called, "The Lost Missions." I believe the author's name is Harland. He talks about the Apollo 18, 19 and 20 missions and what they would have accomplished. I know it out in the UK, but I have not been able to get it from across the pond. |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 08-21-2002 03:53 PM
That'll get you to a description of the book.
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bruce
Member Posts: 916
From: Fort Mill, SC, USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-27-2002 03:49 PM
I just received an email from Bill Pogue, former Skylab astronaut. I was discussing these "what ifs" with him earlier and here's what he had to say: ...it sure is a big "what if" regarding Apollos 18, 19 & 20. I don't know how they would pull that off but not being a producer I have no feel for the technique of making an "alternate history" scenario play out. Your possible crews appear to be correct except I'm not sure if Pete Conrad was slated for Apollo 20. I would have thought that Al Bean would have been the one in line. I stopped following the politics after the cancellation of 18, 19 & 20 and concentrated on Skylab. Just another piece to offer to the "what if" puzzle. |
J_Geenty
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posted 08-28-2002 05:20 AM
This is a subject that has been discussed quite a lot on sci.space.history in past. With regards to Apollo 20, the CDR depends really on when the crew is assigned. If Apollo 20 was a certainty, and NASA had a spare Saturn V for Skylab from the start, then its possible that Conrad might have stayed in the rotation and been assigned to Apollo 20, or perhaps Bean. The problem with these two is that both have walked on the moon before and I think it was a case of "better to give someone else their first chance, rather than send a person for a second time". If Apollo 20 had been secured slightly later, with perhaps permission being given to manufacture one final Saturn V (the long lead time parts had been built) then the CDR would likely have come directly from the rotation, making Stu Roosa the CDR. Roosa as CDR is mentioned in several sources. Deke Slayton certainly considered Don Lind as next in line for an LMP slot, and he made a good compromise between Scientist and Pilot. The CMP would either have been Lousma or Weitz I believe, and since Lousma hung around in Apollo longer before moving to Skylab, I'd give the flight to him first. Fred Haise was selected as 19 CDR became he'd lost his chance to walk on the moon on 13 and was considered by many to be the best guy in his class. Mitchell would never have been given Apollo 20 as CDR IMHO. He was almost bumped from Apollo 14 because he was annoying the higher ups, and it was only Cernan and Shepard who kept him on the crew (Cernan writes in his book that perhaps he should have backed Engle to replace Mitchell since Engle ultimately missed out). The way I see the Apollo/Skylab program laid out without cancellations, is as follows: - A16 Young/Mattingly/Duke - Haise/Pogue/Carr
- A17 Cernan/Evans/Engle - Roosa/Lousma/Lind
- A18 Gordon/Brand/Schmitt - Replacement for A15 Crew needed
- A19 Haise/Pogue/Carr - Young/Mattingly/Duke
- A20 Roosa/Lousma/Lind - Cernan/Evans/Engle
- SL2 Conrad/Weitz/Kerwin - Schweickart/Truly/Musgrave
- SL3 Bean/McCandless/Garriott - Schweickart/Truly/Musgrave
- SL4 Cunningham/Crippen/Gibson - Schweickart/Truly/Musgrave
It might have been Bobko instead of Truly on the Skylab backup crews, but Michael Cassutt said that if anyone from MOL was going to fly in Skylab, it would be Crippen or Truly. The Apollo 18 backup crew is problematic, since it would have been the Apollo 15 crew, but the stamp affair would be the end of them. This is all just educated guess work, but its based on as much of the evidence as I can find. |
Voskhod
Member Posts: 72
From: Oxfordshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-29-2002 05:00 AM
Innteresting stuff. Which book is Truly and Crippen connected to Skylab in? I'd like to check that out.What about Tom Stafford? Cdr of Apollo 20. Any ideas? Did he have an involvement with Skylab? |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 09-01-2002 09:46 AM
I was reading something that I thought was pretty interesting.Back in October 1966, a crew roster was released for the first 3 Apollo flights which included the back-up crews as well. The only Gemini astronauts NOT assigned, besides the 12 crew (which was scheduled to fly the following month), were Gordon Cooper, who was the back-up CDR for GT-12, and believe it or not... Neil Armstrong. |
J_Geenty
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posted 09-03-2002 12:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Voskhod:
Which book is Truly and Crippen connected to Skylab in? I'd like to check that out.
I got the information about Truly and Crippen from a post Michael Cassutt made to sci.space.history in 1997. These two were at the top of their group even then, and so if NASA had need of a CMP for a late Skylab flight, I would think its either Truly or Crip. Here's the link. Remember that Crippen/Bobko/Thornton formed the SMEAT crew and several were on the Support Crew.As for Tom Stafford, I'd say its possible he would have flown Apollo 20. But Stafford had the opportunity to remain in the rotation following Apollo 10, and didn't, he moved into management. He wasn't involved a great deal with Skylab, since he was too busy training for ASTP by the end. Apollo 20 is a difficult one to judge, all you can do is say that by the rotation "so and so would have been CDR, etc". But if an experienced astronaut, who was well respected, with connections, like Conrad or Stafford, had gone to Deke and asked for it, they might have got it. |
Eric
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posted 09-04-2002 09:07 AM
What about Slayton as, perhaps, an LMP on 20 since he was restored to flight status in March 1972, two years before 20 would have launched? |
J_Geenty
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posted 09-04-2002 01:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
What about Slayton as, perhaps, an LMP on 20 since he was restored to flight status in March 1972, two years before 20 would have launched?
I'd consider it unlikely. Apollo 20 flying sometime in 1974 depends on the spacing out of flights that occured following Apollo 13. By that time Apollo 20 had already been cancelled. If Apollo 20 was to fly, its possible that NASA would flown three Apollo missions a year in 1971, 1972, flown Apollo 20 in 1973 and then shifted to Skylab. If this happened, Deke wouldn't have been ready. Even if Apollo 20 didn't fly until 1974, I would still doubt that Slayton could get the assignment. A20 would need a LMP who was up to date on the LM and on his geology classes. I think Deke might just have kept up to date on the CSM, but I'm not sure about the LM and almost certain he hadn't done much geology. If pressure was applied for another scientist to fly, it would have been Lind. If not, someone like Lousma, with extensive work on support crews would have taken it. Deke wasn't in a position to fly Apollo 20 IMHO. Its a nice idea, but I can't see it. Also, if Deke was going to pick himself, he'd have selected himself as CDR too, and I doubt HQ would have approved a rookie CDR for the last J-Series lunar landing.
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Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 09-06-2002 06:35 PM
As long as were on the topic of "what ifs" did anyone here ever get a chance to ask Dick Gordon if he (or other members of his Apollo 18 crew) ever came up with names for the command and lunar modules? |
J_Geenty
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posted 09-07-2002 05:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
As long as were on the topic of "what ifs" did anyone here ever get a chance to ask Dick Gordon if he (or other members of his Apollo 18 crew) ever came up with names for the command and lunar modules?
I think that Dick was asked about Apollo 18 on the interview for the Apogee Apollo 12 NASA Mission Report book. He states that neither he or Schmitt or Brand actually started dedicated training for Apollo 18, and thus never got around to actually naming the CSM/LM. But maybe he's got some ideas, someone should ask him directly about it. I've always kind of hoped that if the CSM from Apollo-Soyuz had been named, it would have been called "Delta" for Deke, but that's just a hope. As far as I know, no names for A18, A19, or A20 were ever made. | |
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