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  Date stamp on STS-113-flown Russian letter

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Author Topic:   Date stamp on STS-113-flown Russian letter
cosmos-walter
Member

Posts: 508
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 05-01-2013 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russian Crew surgeon A. Vasin sent a letter from Kennedy Space Center to ISS Expedition 5 commander Valeri Korsun. It was delivered with space shuttle Endeavour's mission STS-113 on Nov. 25, 2002. The stamps were cancelled with a date stamp "NOV 11 '02" rather than with a KSC postmark.

Does anybody know anything about this date stamp?

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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Posts: 2735
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 05-01-2013 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like the letter was going the other way, from the ISS to KSC. The date stamp may be something they had on board to prevent reuse of the postage, though I don't know why anyone on the station would be concerned with that — I get plenty of letters where the stamps have not been canceled.

cosmos-walter
Member

Posts: 508
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 05-01-2013 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A. Vasin sent inside this envelope brochures from KSC to Valeri Korzun.

STS-113 docked on Nov. 25, 2002.

Whenever cosmonauts on board cancelled postage stamps on board ISS before 2009 they used the circulate date cancellation which was sent by RKK Energia. This stamp is on this cover in red colour. In 2008 the first postmark was delivered to ISS. It is a postmark of the Russian segment of ISS and includes postal code 101000 of Moscow main post office.

astrobv
Member

Posts: 24
From: Geraardsbergen, Belgium
Registered: May 2014

posted 03-08-2015 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astrobv   Click Here to Email astrobv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Walter, you're sure it's not a fake cover?

cosmos-walter
Member

Posts: 508
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 03-08-2015 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Astrobv, the on-board cancellations are genuine. Why do you think, it might be a fake cover?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 32590
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-08-2015 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why is it thought that the dated (Nov. 25, 2002) cancel/cachet is applied in space?

I have the same marker on a bag for a collectSPACE pin that flew to the ISS. It is dated for the same day as the pin landed back on Earth — a day when the cosmonaut who flew the pin would not have had the time to add the mark either in space or on the ground.

As such, I thought the date marker was applied on the ground and backdated, and only the octagonal ISS mark was applied on orbit.

cosmos-walter
Member

Posts: 508
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 03-08-2015 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, both cachets were issued by RKK Energia. They were to be used on board ISS, only. No duplicate of one of them exists on earth. However, before the first Circular date stamp flew into space, some trial cancellations were done on earth. They have one more star than the ones done in space.

However, fakes exist.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 32590
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-08-2015 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know for certain mine is not a fake, so that post-dating is/was a common practice on-orbit.

cosmos-walter
Member

Posts: 508
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 03-09-2015 03:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, your bag was cancelled on board ISS. Cosmonauts are using the day of docking or undocking, respectively to documentate the spacecraft the item was delivered. This does not necessarily mean, that the item was treated on this very date.

astrobv
Member

Posts: 24
From: Geraardsbergen, Belgium
Registered: May 2014

posted 03-11-2015 05:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for astrobv   Click Here to Email astrobv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Walter, recently I saw several covers on eBay from the ISS and MIR, all proposed were fake. I tried to buy one but the seller blocked me.

The quality of the cancels was poor, but for a beginner it is very difficult to see whether it's false one or not. The covers offered are always without signatures and sometimes faults are made in dates. The origin is from Russian seller who has several eBay accounts.

Russian
Member

Posts: 60
From: France
Registered: Nov 2012

posted 03-16-2015 08:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can see some onboard seals on the flown panels (see the Facebook page of Spacepatches.nl). There is no launchers on the Russian segment seal. But I will check with the real flown covers I have. Somewhere I saw this rocket seal before!

cosmos-walter
Member

Posts: 508
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 03-16-2015 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russian, you are referring to the posting of 6. Dezember 2014. The black cancellation on the left is the postmark, the blue ones are cachets which were sent into space by RKK Energia.

fimych
Member

Posts: 22
From: Boston MA, USA
Registered: Jun 2015

posted 06-20-2015 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fimych   Click Here to Email fimych     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have not seen previous posts on the issue of ISS flown covers, but we are opening Pandora box here — how to detect fake covers? There are not so much stuff available on the market. Most of these covers are private ventures of dealers and they sell them to their respective customers, but I have already seen some "suspicious" lots on eBay and Russian auctions, mostly for highly discounted prices.

I have a letter from Vasin to Korzun on ISS-5. It was sent from Houston (Sep. 20) to Zvezdny (Oct. 9), then went off to ISS and cancelled there (Nov. 1) and finally Korzun took it back on STS-113 (unfortunately, no cancellation after Dec 7). I know that such letters (not only from Vasin) was an initiative from one serious dealer who is well-connected to cosmonaut community in Russia.

If you can read the letters, they are meaningless, "it a great pleasure to be a friend of yours", "great job working on ISS," etc. There are also greeting letters from ISS "to a friend" - same source. Those letters was done as commercial project, I don't know the business outcome, but as for me it worth to put in the album.

Now, I want to comment one message "these rubber stamps were designed be RKK and no copy exist." Guys, anything that was produced on Planet Earth, can be copied! I am collecting Soviet orders and medals, so I am leaving in world where fakes are more common, than originals.

The particular letter looks genuine, why?

  1. I have the letter from Vasin to Korzun, from a very reputable dealer.
  2. Another serious dealer has such letters and confirmed the venture
  3. The handwriting of Vasin is the same
  4. I have the cover from ISS-6/7 and the rubber stamps of the Russian Segment are exactly the same. the other rubber stamps also look good.
These are my thoughts and the point of fake covers is something that really bothers me.

cosmos-walter
Member

Posts: 508
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 06-21-2015 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I mentioned "no duplicate exists on earth" I did not want to exclude fakes. I wanted to say that no legit duplicates were made for cancellations on earth. Even RKK Energia company offered faked "ISS on board covers" more than a decade ago.

As for this very cover I am sure the red cachet and the two blue cachets were added on board ISS.

I asked for the black date stamp which I never saw before.

fimych
Member

Posts: 22
From: Boston MA, USA
Registered: Jun 2015

posted 06-21-2015 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fimych   Click Here to Email fimych     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to miss the point.

astrobv
Member

Posts: 24
From: Geraardsbergen, Belgium
Registered: May 2014

posted 06-23-2015 07:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for astrobv   Click Here to Email astrobv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What concerns reputable dealers, Germany had already some, just an example the Riser fakes. All covers were sold as genuine but... we know the story.

So reputable dealers, always?

fimych
Member

Posts: 22
From: Boston MA, USA
Registered: Jun 2015

posted 06-23-2015 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fimych   Click Here to Email fimych     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russians say - money defeat evil ... and good.

I don't know the bullet-proof algorithm of fake-free purchase. Trying to buy from people I know and show to the people who more experienced than me.

All times are CT (US)

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